Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[Sconnie Blue]

1 minute ago, HazardousChoice said:

We did though.  The biggest problem at the club is the lack of attacking talent.

We regularly give minutes to attacking players that wouldn't start for a single club in any major European league.

We immediately tried to address this when the window opened, the first 2 deals we agreed were Sterling and Raphina. The former is our best player so far this season and unfortunately the latter turned us down as did our backup in Dembele.

But we've certainly tried to address the issue even if we've been incredibly slow to move for another attacking player after missing out on our main targets.

The midfield is arguably the 2nd most crucial issue second to defensive reinforcements. It was incredibly evident that when Kovacic and Kante are out, our midfield collapses. They are injury prone players and to gamble on our season by hoping they would magically not be injury prone anymore, is bar none unacceptable. 

Bissouma, Nunes, Phillips, Neves, Paredes, Kone, etc would of helped us tremendously.

[forbzy]

29 minutes ago, dkw said:

But its being happening for months, before those transitional periods, we have progressively got worse in every part of the pitch. 

Sterling has done well, but mostly of the back of his own work and not been indoctrinated into stopping going forward to pass it back to the keeper yet.

No idea on Fofana, and we cant base anything on that.

Regardless of opinions on Tuchel, he is clearly being backed heavily at present. The new owners have brought in a lot of new players this window and it has to be assumed that they have been targeted based on Tuchel's recommendations. For that reason alone you would have to think the new owners will be patient with Tuchel for this season, even if there is no immediate sign of improvement. I suspect Boehly will have a Directory of Football appointed at some point this season, and then they will have a resource that they can lean on for decisions over managers. If we are still struggling to improve at that point I would say Tuchel will likely be shown the door. So realistically he probably has the whole season to show some progress, unless we start flirting with the lower half of the table like we did under Jose in his last season.

With all the transition I think top 4, and maybe even top 6 will be a stretch. Even if we start to click second half of season we may have too much ground to make up. But under Tuchel we have been a decent cup team and there is every chance that will continue this season.

[JM7]

Thing is, we said the defence were terrible under Lampard and it turns out it was the system that wrong. Tuchel turned it around with the same players. 
 

It’s the same with the attack. It’s a system issue. I guarantee that another manager could get something out of this attack using a different system. He needs to mix it up abit. 

[enigma]

 

[enigma]

Tuchel was very good for PSG. Granted, PSG were already a top club, but just shows what he can do.

He managed the French capital club for 127 matches, winning 95 of those and losing just 19 overall - meaning he boasts a win percentage of 74.8 per cent from his time there.

With players such as Neymar, Edinson Cavani and Kylian Mbappe at his disposal, Tuchel ensured that PSG were a free-scoring side, with 337 goals scored across his tenure.

[LongtimerLurker]

100% back and Boehly needs to do so further, I'm so tired of having average players in the squad I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for Tuchel. I don't want to use the lack of quality as the only excuse as to why performances have been so bad the last 6 months or so. 

Tuchel has been getting a lot wrong recently, maybe he overthinks it maybe he overestimated the squad's ability to adapt, maybe he underestimates the quality of the opposition. We no longer look like the fittest team on the pitch. Every single club tries to physically compete with us and it feels like they always outperform us, all we can do now is pass. 

Why don't we look as physically dominating anymore? Are the players just burnt out? When Tuchel first joined, using players in different positions was heralded as ingenious, now it seems counterproductive.

I think he knows he's under pressure now he looked very nervous before the match. I'm hoping we get a response now in the transfer market and at the weekend on the pitch. I find it very unlikely he's lost the backing of the fans or players but he's starting to raise questions and I hope he has the answers.

[LongtimerLurker]

15 minutes ago, enigma said:

Tuchel was very good for PSG. Granted, PSG were already a top club, but just shows what he can do.

He managed the French capital club for 127 matches, winning 95 of those and losing just 19 overall - meaning he boasts a win percentage of 74.8 per cent from his time there.

With players such as Neymar, Edinson Cavani and Kylian Mbappe at his disposal, Tuchel ensured that PSG were a free-scoring side, with 337 goals scored across his tenure.

Two huge differences between PSG and Chelsea though mate. PSG is a monopoly power in France they are all conquering, some teams just rollover for them. In the Premier league it is a duopoly with Man City and Liverpool you could argue to an extent that the presence of Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal who have Premier league history makes it more of an oligopoly (more than 2 teams dominating the league). 

Secondly the elite forwards at PSG vs Chelsea only Sterling gets into his PSG side I don't know if Mount or Havertz even make the bench and that's not me being harsh I don't think they would get in front of Icardi, DiMaria etc. It's not just the front line though there were superstars running all the way through that squad.

PSG live a completely different existence to Chelsea no way the teams below them in their league compete to the same level as those in the Premier league. 

Tuchel knows the challenges aren't very comparable. Yet its interesting he finds Chelsea so easy to manage because the lack of superstar egos, the drawback of not having to deal with the 'big boys' is whilst you don't have locker room issues as much you also don't have the same ability to rely on in games and it tells.

Edited August 31, 2022 by LongtimerLurker

[Mod]

It is out of our hands when it looks like 90% of the team no longer want to play for him now!

I'm still convinced of a spat with Reece like Marcos last season!

[Sexyfootball]

35 minutes ago, Edjmendy said:

Selling Gilmour when we need midfielders is the last straw. Tuchel is mad. Tuchel out!!!

Surely getting any money at all for a player who couldn't nail down a place in the Norwich starting XI last season is something that should be applauded, not used as a stick for further beating of the manager ?

Looking at last year's squad, how many of them get in the starting XI of Mourinho's title winning teams ? NONE ! Kante would be a discussion, but Makelele would win that one.

We need a serious rebuild, and thank god Boehly has got stuck into that straight away ... starting with the defence first was inevitable and sensible, given Rudiger and Christensen had already left ...

[enigma]

It took Klopp about 3/4 seasons to win the PL. He also had Salah who has been incredible for Liverpool. Without Salah, I doubt Liverpool would have won the league. It shows that you need that special ingredient to make a team league contenders. We still crave for that special goalscorer that Liverpool and City, and even Spurs to a lesser extent with Kane, have had. 

[ducavis]

2 hours ago, coco said:

I don't disagree with any of that, where we differ is the length of time we are prepared to give him.

We have been trying to win the league rotating different managers in and out, but we don't get close anymore, the squad is a patchwork of players thrown together due to the constant managerial changes.

I don't think it's unrealistic to blame that short-termism methodology for the situation were currently in.

That means backing Tuchel to build something meaningful.

Not advocating getting rid of him but I reckon he made a rod for his back when he said “..We are Chelsea and we need to compete”. He said something similar after winning the CL along the lines of “.. we need to try and close the gap between us and City, and not be 19pts behind them” and ended last season 19pts behind them again. Won’t be surprised if this season plays out the same way. I think fans would be patient and understanding if he had approached the window with a long term outlook, and there were incremental progress been made. Utd fans can see Ten Haag is trying to build something, and most would tell you the goal is top 6. The same applies to Arsenal fans and how Arteta has approached the market. Now if you go out there and buy a 31yr defender, try buying a 33yr old forward, and buy a 24yr old LB when you already have a 25yr old LB, fans will automatically assume you are matching your words with your actions and targeting the “NOW”.
 

For me it isn’t about the money he has spent, but how he has approached the market. 

[Sexyfootball]

We've had a terrible start to the season ... everyone agrees ... and yet after 5 games we find ourselves only THREE points out of the Top 4 places ... it is not nearly as bad a situation as many are trying to make out ...

[the real shed end]

6 hours ago, Valerie said:

A long reply, elaborating on what I've posted in the Sack him or back him thread. Sorry for that @axman2526 and everybody who bothers to read it.

In my view Tuchel must be given more time. Yes, this calender year the results have been unimpressive, and our football generally horrible to watch, but we’ve brought in a few new players that need to settle in. We’ve only played 5 games into the new season, FFS.

As I posted in the Sack him or back him thread, Chelsea have no god given right to win anything, but with the players we have, we should at least see more better football and a fighting spirit. I know f**k all about formations and what is anybody’s best position, but arguably Tuchel does. It makes me wonder what is happening on the coaching front. Does Tuchel have the wrong ideas for good players we have or alternatively the right ideas, but the wrong players? Some may be average where we require top players. 

How stubborn is he exactly, what role do his assistents play? Are they yes-men or are they truly supporting TT’s tactics? If they don’t, do they (dare to0 give contrary advice and TT brushes them aside? And our players: how do they feel about it? Aren’t there any who can take a match by the scruff of its neck and direct it into a winning direction? Being a good footballer obviously doesn’t equal being able to read a game and to think tactically or strategically, or firing up your fellow-players. 

Another thing: we’ve had an endless caroussel of managers in the past 20 years, perhaps even before Roman. All brought in their own players, leaving their successors with different ideas with players they did not acquire. Did we win all those trophies because this caroussel or despite it? 

We last won the league title in 2017, so 5 years ago. Before that it was 2015 (2 years in between), 2010 (5 years in between), 2006 (4 years), 2005 ( back to back) and 1955 (ehhhh…). So not having won the title in 5 years is not uncommon, we’re not the only big club (or Leicester) vying for it. Do we expect to win it in say 2 years? It’s not impossible, but is it probable? Not the way we’re going now, let’s face it. Are we a cup team then, as some posters have said a few times? In the recent past we’ve lost 3 FA Cup finals in a row (once with Lampard, twice with Tuchel), plus 2 League Cup finals (Sarri and Tuchel). Losing 5 domestic cup finals in 4 seasons – with mostly the same players – is f**king awful, even if we did manage to win the Europa League and the Champions League (I’m still wondering how). No, we're not even a cup team in my view, not when you defining it as winning those cups.

I would argue that winning the CL has given us an inflated impression of ourselves. Frankly, we’re not as good as we think we are, as we think we should be, or as we want to be. There is never just one element to blame for this, is a combination of factors. Taking away one of those factors, the manager being the easiest one to boot out, will therefore not solve this. Apart from that: who will take over to magically make us win silverware? In my opinion, only time can do anything to improve us, but coaching staff and players need to pull their socks up and be smarter, be better and toughen the f**k up. 

Sorry for asking more questions than actually coming up with a balanced insight or clever remarks on formation, double-pivots or false 9s....

Also please advise: should I bother with spending my cash to come over for a game?
 

I think your spot on , I think we all wonder how we won the champions league  but we did somehow .  I feel we have no one with no real bollocks to go in and grab the game by the scruff of the neck and really battle. No real fight no real passion. I'm not saying they are not skilled footballers , they obviously are, but sometime you need to battle. Teams are going to batter us physically and that's where we have no answer . We are so light weight it's un true. I hope Broja is the answer up front . We need someone with muscle, because Havertz,  Mount and Sterling,  gifted though they are, are just not who you need in the trenches.

[forbzy]

13 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

We've had a terrible start to the season ... everyone agrees ... and yet after 5 games we find ourselves only THREE points out of the Top 4 places ... it is not nearly as bad a situation as many are trying to make out ...

You are right about the current league placing, and certainly we are still in touch with top 4. But that assumes of course that our form improves and we put together a run of wins soon. You often see a few unfamiliar teams in the top 6 early on. But I fully expect the usual teams like United, Liverpool to start cementing their places in the top 6 by the time we have reached 10 games or so. Certainly by the time we reach the mid-season break for the World Cup.

[axman2526]

I rate Broja highly but he won't solve all our problems. We have issues in every department not just up top.

[Lampsy]

51 minutes ago, HazardousChoice said:

We did though.  The biggest problem at the club is the lack of attacking talent.

We regularly give minutes to attacking players that wouldn't start for a single club in any major European league.

We immediately tried to address this when the window opened, the first 2 deals we agreed were Sterling and Raphina. The former is our best player so far this season and unfortunately the latter turned us down as did our backup in Dembele.

But we've certainly tried to address the issue even if we've been incredibly slow to move for another attacking player after missing out on our main targets.

Our attacking options aren't good at all, but we're talking about a manager who has players in their wrong positions all over the park.

If he's willing to put Pulisic and CHO in wingback positions, then he should go all out crazy mode and attempt to put Reece in an attacking position. He's probably created more chances than anyone else anyway and he's a better finisher than the players mentioned above. 

He's content placing his attackers in defensive positions but not vice versa. He just sets up too defensively in general and it neuters our forwards.

[EdinburghBlue]

We play utterly turgid football under Tuchel and he thinks Havertz deserves to start week in, week out when he’s the worst striker we’ve had since Chris Sutton and we’ve had some absolute honkers.

The fact we’ve neglected going for any first choice central midfielders with the money we’re throwing around is nothing short of ludicrous. did we really need Cucurella at almost £70m? He’s good but was that really the priority? He’s not better than a fully fit Chilwell IMO.

Our descent over the last 8 months or so has been significant, I believe his win % in the league since that point is pretty bad (someone put it in his thread).

 

He is an exceptional cup manager and can outsmart the best of them across a game or two but over the course of an entire season, he’s not got it. His team selections absolutely boggle the mind as well.

 

I wouldn’t mind him being given another month or two to try and resolve the issues but equally I wouldn’t mind him being sacked. But I wouldn’t be trusting his player recruitment with anymore money though. Gordon for £60m is absolutely mental. People conveniently forget that it was pretty widely reported by press close to the club that he signed off on the Lukaku transfer as well. The fact there’s credible rumours today that he’s letting Gilmour go permanently is obscene. We have no depth there and the only one that stays fit is Jorginho and the less said about him the better yet he’s letting another midfielder go? Absolutely bonkers.

Edited August 31, 2022 by EdinburghBlue

[Ballack & Blu]

1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I'll keep it short and simple buy buy buy. This is not an issue that can be resolved through coaching. We need elite attackers and midfielders, this is a rebuild and we have begun with the defence yet so much more work is needed.

We've made a good start, but to leave the midfield for another window could be catastrophic, did Tuchel nor the board learn nothing from last season. At minimum 2/3 of Jorginho, Kova and Kante need to be fit at the same time for the whole season.

With 2 of them somewhat injury prone it is not wise to go into the season without reinforcements in such a key area. Money can't be the issue since we've spent so much already clearly we had two targets FDJ and Rice and neither will come this summer so we've chosen to wait I presume.

Sterling is a great addition but he can't do it all on his own relying on a goal or two from him all season will be the end of Tuchel. Look we all love Havertz and Mount, whilst the latter does bring goals and assists to the table the former sadly just doesn't. Not to the level required at least to be getting the minutes he has. We can talk about off the ball movement and other metrics all we like but if 2/3 of your attack don't contribute to goals you have a serious issue. 

I maintain that if TT is to play 3241( his best formation imo not 352, I'm strongly against him lining up this way) then we need an elite goalscorer alongside Mount and Sterling and we will see some proper attractive football. Havertz is definitely good enough for the squad but he shouldn't be given a place in the starting lineup match after match without contributing anything in terms of goals or assets it's not a meritocracy at that point.

We all know the issue if TT can't see it himself then I don't know what to say. It's not like we haven't been linked with numerous attackers sadly nothing has really happened other than Sterling. The longer we persist with the let's try and win by one goal tactic the more it exposes the inherent weakness that run throughout the squad. 

I believe Tuchel is doing his best, but he's getting a lot wrong recently. He needs elite players now to accompany his coaching he's taken these players as far as he can. Already you can see the levels Sterling brought to the attack, but one player won't make a whole lot of difference with the structural issues that remain.

Players continue to lack the confidence to play early balls and to allow forwards to run in behind. Creativity and finishing are currently the main issues I believe and no amount of defensive reinforcements will change this.

Let me say one more time 352 is not the answer 

 

Brilliant post btw

[axman2526]

41 minutes ago, Mod said:

It is out of our hands when it looks like 90% of the team no longer want to play for him now!

I'm still convinced of a spat with Reece like Marcos last season!

You are right. If the ayers decide to down tools on him then he goes the way of Jose mark 2 and Frank.

We did not look like a team playing for our manager yesterday or at Leeds. That is concerning, and is even more concerning it keeps happening with different managers.

[Luca Vialli]

I'm still on the side of back him (just)

The inflexible system is going to and has ruined quite a few attacking players who now have zero confidence or moved/want to move. Buying 6 players at 60m+ isn't the answer if he can't motivate the current crop to be competitve and put in a performance at Leeds or Southampton.

He needs to bench the players who are obviously not working but he's sending the wrong message by making them look undroppable.

I'm losing faith with each passing game to be honest.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Luca Vialli

[Lang7]

13 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

We play utterly turgid football under Tuchel and he thinks Havertz deserves to start week in, week out when he’s the worst striker we’ve had since Chris Sutton and we’ve had some absolute honkers.

The fact we’ve neglected going for any first choice central midfielders with the money we’re throwing around is nothing short of ludicrous. did we really need Cucurella at almost £70m? He’s good but was that really the priority? He’s not better than a fully fit Chilwell IMO.

Our descent over the last 8 months or so has been significant, I believe his win % in the league since that point is pretty bad (someone put it in his thread).

 

He is an exceptional cup manager and can outsmart the best of them across a game or two but over the course of an entire season, he’s not got it. His team selections absolutely boggle the mind as well.

 

I wouldn’t mind him being given another month or two to try and resolve the issues but equally I wouldn’t mind him being sacked. But I wouldn’t be trusting his player recruitment with anymore money though. Gordon for £60m is absolutely mental. People conveniently forget that it was pretty widely reported by press close to the club that he signed off on the Lukaku transfer as well. The fact there’s credible rumours today that he’s letting Gilmour go permanently is obscene. We have no depth there and the only one that stays fit is Jorginho and the less said about him the better yet he’s letting another midfielder go? Absolutely bonkers.

Spot on. Get him out now before he blows another £200M, sells off Gilmour and generally screws any chance for the next manager.

[El regreso]

So if we sack him and a new manager comes in results are the same then he wants to overall the squad then what?

[Lang7]

6 minutes ago, El regreso said:

So if we sack him and a new manager comes in results are the same then he wants to overall the squad then what?

Is it better to sack Tuchel and give the next guy a £200M kitty or let Tuchel blow another £200M on players he’ll stick out of position and then sack him? If we bin him now at least the next guy has a fighting chance.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Lang7

[drjonesy1994]

Why are we acting like Tuchel has spent the money exclusively on duds that wouldn’t work for the next manager? 😂 

If you had said to me in May we would sign Fofana, Koulibaly, Cucurella and Sterling, I would’ve taken it, regardless of who the manager was. 

[chiefBlueCFC]

If we were to sack Tuchel now, then this entire summer transfer window of purchasing the players for Tuchel, at his direction - a lot of young players too - would become an absolute waste. We would be back in this rotation of getting a manager, "backing him" for a transfer window or two, then when the players get upset about the new manager not playing their preferred style, system or playing the player as regularly as the PLAYER sees he should, they go into hiding and are no longer committed to the club/manager and we see these performances that looks like you or me out on the pitch.

What I have an issue with yesterday, is that there are several players we are trying get rid of, that desperately want out of the club, yet we started one, and brought another on when we needed players to fight and cause a reaction within the team. When we have kids who would die and kill for that opportunity to put the first team shirt on and put a damn shift in! Are those kids as "talented" as some of those first team players? Maybe not right now. But, given the mentality, attitude, and lack of commitment of some of those players, then I would say play the kids over Pulisic, Ziyech, etc.

Pulisic needs to be removed from the team. His attitude is dangerous and he acts like he is Lionel Messi, or Cristiano Ronaldo, or someone of that ilk. Boehly needs to allow him to leave and get mad at the injuries he continuously has and blame his lack of playing time on someone else, somewhere else.

So, in all, I am currently in the boat of backing Tuchel, but, that doesn't just stop at the World Cup. Unless things get completely out of control and out of hand, he has the entire year for me. Then we will revisit the season and how things went. We can't expect to be City, or Liverpool, or Real Madrid in a single transfer window, but what we want to see are issues being addressed, solutions being offered, solutions working, and getting those players that are not and will not be committed to the club away from the first team.

The injuries are bothersome but they are a part of every sport on the planet. Nothing you can do about it sometimes really. But, what does bother me? The fact that we didn't address the midfield at all - minus the two we young dudes we signed - and we have two players that are injury prone and a third we rely on that is about as athletic as a turnstile and is over 30. I know we are trying to bat our eyes at Frenkie de Jong but, I don't know it seemed to not be very well planned out.