Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[charierre]

1 minute ago, Sindre said:

Well, yes.

But large parts of the summer and large parts of the transfer budget had to be spent on replacing two top class defenders our last director gave away for free. Not saying he wasn't supported because he was but for this window we had to focus on defence first and foremost and that's what we have done. Midfield and attack isn't really "his" yet despite Sterling, Aubameyang and Zakaria and we have a long way to go there before we can compete with Manchester City. Which should be the goal here.

 

I don't think anybody is asking for a title challenge(that may not materialise in this generation, football honours tend to be cyclic) given our spend though top four has to be a given. Whilst I don't think anyone can honestly be happy with the style of football we are currently producing, TT has been well backed and now he needs to produce.

[dkw]

15 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Your logic circuits are completely fried when it comes to any discussion on Tuchel LOL ... he could win us the quadruple and you'd still find stuff to have a pop at him about. All good fun though. This place would be boring as f**k if we all thought the same about everything !

No I wouldnt, I would be chuffed to bits with him, I want every single person at Chelsea to succeed in everything they do, And when its not working I will give my opnion on them, same as I did with any player, manager, owner or coach in the past. Yet with Tuchel there are some on here who struggle to accept any criticism, its weird as hell.

By every metric this is his squad as much as can be said for any manager. To deny that is just odd.

[ozboy]

He has got as much this window as he could reasonably expect, although de jong would have been perfect. Now to make it work.

He has to get the midfield to work even with the rarely available kante and 60 minute kova. And he has to find a way for the team to score goals.

Last season we made the final four of the champions league, played two cup finals, finished 3rd in the league are the 5th highest rated club in europe and yet everyone hates tuchel.  

We can all agree its a crap start to the season but to me its like a house renovation. you don't even find out what the problems are until you take the wall paper off. Anyway we will see, Boehly may not be Abramovitch but only results will keep the value of the club up and justify the investment.

[drjonesy1994]

I would say that a fair amount of the first team now are likely to be Tuchel's signings, and if the results don't start to improve then that will be on him I am afraid. 

Mendy - Lamps signing
James - Youth
Koulibaly - TT signing
Fofana - TT signing
Cucurella - TT signing
Kante - Conte signing
Mount - Youth
Kovacic - Sarri signing
Sterling - TT signing
Auba - TT signing
Havertz - Lamps signing

I imagine these are the players that will play most of our games, so TT has 5 players that he has signed playing week in week out, so to say it is still not his squad is not entirely correct in my opinion. It may take 1 or 2 windows for Tuchel to fully get the squad where he wants to, but for now he has 5 signings from this summer that will play most weeks. 

I love TT and am one of his biggest defenders on here but I think we need to acknowledge now he has been backed with his signings, and any failure to improve will likely be on him. 

[Guest Sindre]

25 minutes ago, charierre said:

I don't think anybody is asking for a title challenge(that may not materialise in this generation, football honours tend to be cyclic) given our spend though top four has to be a given. Whilst I don't think anyone can honestly be happy with the style of football we are currently producing, TT has been well backed and now he needs to produce.

Fair enough.

My point was that a lot of the money have been spent on replacing players we wanted to keep. Fofana & Koulibaly were half our budget and they don't make us any stronger than we were 12 months ago.

Lots of money spent yes. But in the end it's probably 3 players that will actually strengthen us compared to a year ago and thats Cucurella, Sterling and Auba. Problems in midfield still persist and we are still lacking quality in attack even with Sterling & Auba.

With Kante's tailored pre-season I think Tuchel had high hopes from him this season. So did I but him going down with injury again screwed us and at that point we became a bit desperate for a midfielder. I think it's a good thing we didn't panic buy though and instead loaned someone but I think it's clear we have some major issues to fix still.

Performances will improve though. As they should.

 

[charierre]

3 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Fair enough.

My point was that a lot of the money have been spent on replacing players we wanted to keep. Fofana & Koulibaly were half our budget and they don't make us any stronger than we were 12 months ago.

Lots of money spent yes. But in the end it's probably 3 players that will actually strengthen us compared to a year ago and thats Cucurella, Sterling and Auba. Problems in midfield still persist and we are still lacking quality in attack even with Sterling & Auba.

With Kante's tailored pre-season I think Tuchel had high hopes from him this season. So did I but him going down with injury again screwed us and at that point we became a bit desperate for a midfielder. I think it's a good thing we didn't panic buy though and instead loaned someone but I think it's clear we have some major issues to fix still.

Performances will improve though. As they should.

 

I think we have to put the midfield down to him too. He left it late to recruit and chose to spend a vast amount of money on Cucarella( not that he's a bad signing) instead of upgrading the part of the team we all see as weak. I honestly feel that Boehly has given him every opportunity to achieve the top four goal and it is now down to him to coach the players into a coherent unit.

[venom2011]

8 minutes ago, charierre said:

I think we have to put the midfield down to him too. He left it late to recruit and chose to spend a vast amount of money on Cucarella( not that he's a bad signing) instead of upgrading the part of the team we all see as weak. I honestly feel that Boehly has given him every opportunity to achieve the top four goal and it is now down to him to coach the players into a coherent unit.

It's weak area in light of injuries, sure. But the defense and attack were far more pressing concerns. I'm not sure who would look at a midfield of Kante, Kovacic, Jorginho, RLC, Gallagher and think it's a glaring weakness. At any point you would think he'd have at least 3 to pick from. Against Southampton only 1 could play the 90...

[charierre]

1 minute ago, venom2011 said:

It's weak area in light of injuries, sure. But the defense and attack were far more pressing concerns. I'm not sure who would look at a midfield of Kante, Kovacic, Jorginho, RLC, Gallagher and think it's a glaring weakness. At any point you would think he'd have at least 3 to pick from. Against Southampton only 1 could play the 90...

I think you'll find quite a few posts stating we haven't upgraded our midfield in years and possibly pointing this to our forwards failures. The midfield is functional to say the least. We simply have no creator there or player capable of goals or assists. As for DM hopefully the new  bloke will shore us up as it is clear we can't rely on Kante alone now. I am now though going around in circles and I like others think that TT  has been well backed, better than any of us could have expected back in June. He does now have to deliver. I will say this contrary to what some may believe NOBODY wants to see him fail in his job, I have followed this team for around 55 years now as have others, wanting anyone at the club to fail is total nonsense. 

[abramovich]

I'm a bit torn on the Tuchel issue. I like him and still believe he has pedigree to build something great here but there are some worrying signs on display. I do believe he needs to build his own team and that takes time and money, so I'm ready for some setbacks along the way. But even during the rebuild the manager needs to show improvement, it's all well and good to say I inherited an imbalanced team with quite a few players that aren't good enough for a top side, but top coaches find a way to adapt and get the best out of what they've got. He did  exactly that when he won the CL and reached  every domestic final since he got here. 

But these losses to Leeds and Soton are concerning. It's not just the results, the performances were shockingly bad. I know we were missing most of our central midfield but that's not an excuse for the lack of fight and inability to even create any sort of attacking movement. The transition from defence to attack and the other way around is very problematic. We pass the ball sideways ad nauseam and it's clear that players don't know hat they're doing, they're afraid to make a mistake so they go the safer route and we end up creating f**k all and losing the ball anyway. Why are we so out of ideas going forward? If we need to move the ball fast in the middle, then bring in the players that can do that. If we needed a midfielder, why wait until the last day?

Edited September 2, 2022 by abramovich

[abramovich]

I know it may sound a bit premature but I like the work Graham Potter is doing at Brighton. Hopefully he'll continue to do well and at some point after TT leaves I'd love to see what Potter can do with much better resources at his disposal.

 

[coco]

38 minutes ago, abramovich said:

I'm a bit torn on the Tuchel issue. I like him and still believe he has pedigree to build something great here but there are some worrying signs on display. I do believe he needs to build his own team and that takes time and money, so I'm ready for some setbacks along the way. But even during the rebuild the manager needs to show improvement,

Yes but not at the start of a rebuild, he must be immune for a period, dkw will say he's had time, but we all know this is a rebuild happening right now, not last season or the one before, it's totally unfair to judge him at the moment, good or bad.

[Sexyfootball]

58 minutes ago, charierre said:

I think we have to put the midfield down to him too. He left it late to recruit and chose to spend a vast amount of money on Cucarella( not that he's a bad signing) instead of upgrading the part of the team we all see as weak. I honestly feel that Boehly has given him every opportunity to achieve the top four goal and it is now down to him to coach the players into a coherent unit.

Well, if we were going to be letting Alonso and Emerson go, which pretty much every fan was agreed on as something that needed to happen, then we definitely needed to sign a decent left back, which we've done. 

I think with a limited amount of money to go around (from the FFP perspective - I'm sure Boehly would have been quite happy to spend £500m if he was allowed to), our transfer activity was pretty much conducted on a triage basis. We had lost defenders, so that had to be priority. The midfield on paper was solid, if not spectacular, and did have Gallagher coming back into the fold (and only Barkley leaving), while up front we had big problems with unproductive forwards that ran offside all the time, or were static, or couldn't beat defenders, and if they did have a good chance to score, one on ones etc, could usually be relied on to screw it up somehow, which they did often enough that most people would think prioritising new recruits in attack was sensible. I think they have looked at it, and thought they could get another year out of Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic that would be good enough, that with new recruits up front coming in we'd still be making progress, and that if we signed a couple of promising midfielders on relatively low fees and wages, they'd have a year to bed in before Kante and Jorginho's current contracts expire. I also suspect that we probably didn't want to add too much cost in midfield, given the high salaries the current incumbents are getting, Kante and Kovacic in particular, which would be wasted if they were essentially "benched" by new recruits. Having then watched the first 5 games, with Kante getting injured, Jorginho looking fragile, and Gallagher looking like a rabbit in the headlights, I think they've had to re-consider the midfield strategy as a matter of some urgency. Hopefully Zakaria will hit the ground running !

I'm quite sure, as you say, that Boehly will expect Tuchel to get top 4 as a minimum requirement. With the window now shut, TT, the coaching staff and the players need to get their act together quickly.

[Jangz]

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

Not really his squad yet. We are in the biggest transition period in nearly two decades and this window was a good start but there is a long way to go.

No manager gets his squad like even pep has a couple of players from Mancini era.. I think we have certainly backed him.. so I do think he needs to produce and show progress if not challenge immediately 

[Guest Sindre]

1 hour ago, coco said:

Yes but not at the start of a rebuild, he must be immune for a period, dkw will say he's had time, but we all know this is a rebuild happening right now, not last season or the one before, it's totally unfair to judge him at the moment, good or bad.

I don't get his views on Tuchel. Under Lampard it was all about  "managerial stability based on patience" (this was towards the end when we were in 9th) and "accept that it takes time to grow a team" but he's somehow done a 180 in record time as none of that clearly matters anymore now that Tuchel is in charge. Just odd isn't it.

[Zeta]

It's because he look over from Lampard. Some people will never forgive him for that.

[dkw]

2 hours ago, coco said:

Yes but not at the start of a rebuild, he must be immune for a period, dkw will say he's had time, but we all know this is a rebuild happening right now, not last season or the one before, it's totally unfair to judge him at the moment, good or bad.

So you are genuinely ok with how things have gone the past 12 months or so of his managerial time with us? Its all been on a downward slope since 2 wing backs got injured, he had absolutely no idea how to change things and use the squad to better effect from then, instead choosing to shove players out of position to suit his one way of playing, which was failing constantly. Like I said, if he had shown some idea on how to get us out of this funk, some sort of forward planning going on then fair enough, I would accept this kind of thinking. But to me up to now I haven't seen any of that at all, just muddling through with terrible football, sticking with the same failing ones match after match in their positions while moving others around them and misusing others constantly, all to suit his "style".

Now he has his squad, that might all change, and I truly hope it does and he leads us on to success playing superb football, battering teams, then I will change my opinion on him. I think thats allowed.

[Gol15]

3 hours ago, drjonesy1994 said:

I would say that a fair amount of the first team now are likely to be Tuchel's signings, and if the results don't start to improve then that will be on him I am afraid. 

Mendy - Lamps signing
James - Youth
Koulibaly - TT signing
Fofana - TT signing
Cucurella - TT signing
Kante - Conte signing
Mount - Youth
Kovacic - Sarri signing
Sterling - TT signing
Auba - TT signing
Havertz - Lamps signing

I imagine these are the players that will play most of our games, so TT has 5 players that he has signed playing week in week out, so to say it is still not his squad is not entirely correct in my opinion. It may take 1 or 2 windows for Tuchel to fully get the squad where he wants to, but for now he has 5 signings from this summer that will play most weeks. 

I love TT and am one of his biggest defenders on here but I think we need to acknowledge now he has been backed with his signings, and any failure to improve will likely be on him. 

I also think that we shouldn't ignore the big elephant in the room when talking about who signed who here, Tuchel's most expensive signing was Lukaku and he has over 40 appearances under Tuchel and only 14 goals.

So far these are the top 5 players that made the most appearances under Tuchel:

1. Mount (84)
2. Rudiger (78)
3. Azpilicueta (78)
4. Mendy (77)
5. Jorginho (76)

Only Mount is an offensive player here. It goes to show that Tuchel so far hasn't found a stable attacking duo, nor trio... In comparison Klopp and Pep did manage their teams many seasons more so while it's not really fair to compare it's still pretty clear when you see theirs top 5 used players ever in Liverpool and Man City that they did establish a standard attacking option; Klopp in his top 5 has Firmino, Mané and Salah and Pep has Sterling, De Bruyne and Bernardo Silva.

Tuchel will most likely need 2 summer transfer windows more in order to build his own squad. Sterling is going to play for him most of the time, but he needs a few more long-term attacking options.

 

[EdinburghBlue]

4 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

Your logic circuits are completely fried when it comes to any discussion on Tuchel LOL ... he could win us the quadruple and you'd still find stuff to have a pop at him about. All good fun though. This place would be boring as f**k if we all thought the same about everything !

You cannot say it’s not his squad when he’s received the backing he has. Otherwise no manager post Roman buying the club has ever had their own squad.

Edited September 2, 2022 by EdinburghBlue

[axman2526]

I think it is fair to say TT has had the ear of the owners this window and been backed very well. Had he decided he wanted to upgrade midfield sooner or buy a more long term striker I believe that would have happen too.

The Broja, Kante and Kova injuries and Havertz and Mounts poor starts altered his thinking on those, imo.

Also fair to say the added work load has distracted from his work with the squad and that has left us short. Now he can focus solely on the job he was hired for, and hopefully we see an improvement, and that Fofana, Auba and Zakaria add what we have been missing.

[Sexyfootball]

28 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

You cannot say it’s not his squad when he’s received the backing he has. Otherwise no manager post Roman buying the club has ever had their own squad.

Exactly ... which is why most of them had the title of "coach" ... with the remit to do their best with what they are given. 

However, we are trying to catch City and Liverpool, whose managers have been there long enough that most of the players have indeed joined the club during their tenure, and are totally bought in to their playing style and philosophy, which helps create the necessary squad depth. When Tuchel is complaining that the bench aren't giving him selection problems, then it shows that we don't have nearly enough quality to choose from. 

Tuchel seems to be of a similar level to Klopp and Pep, hence I think he deserves the chance to build to the same degree that those two have. After one window, we have made an excellent start but work still to do. two more windows and I think we'll be close.

[Valpo]

22 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

Exactly ... which is why most of them had the title of "coach" ... with the remit to do their best with what they are given. 

However, we are trying to catch City and Liverpool, whose managers have been there long enough that most of the players have indeed joined the club during their tenure, and are totally bought in to their playing style and philosophy, which helps create the necessary squad depth. When Tuchel is complaining that the bench aren't giving him selection problems, then it shows that we don't have nearly enough quality to choose from. 

Tuchel seems to be of a similar level to Klopp and Pep, hence I think he deserves the chance to build to the same degree that those two have. After one window, we have made an excellent start but work still to do. two more windows and I think we'll be close.

 

He deserves to build as long as he can keep us in the Champion's league.   I'm not expecting him to rush off and win the EPL this year.  But if he doesn't get us in the top 4 than he should go.  

He doesn't have to wait until he can put everyone in he wants in place before he's accountable for results.  He's still accountable for results now.  

[RMH]

4 hours ago, coco said:

Yes but not at the start of a rebuild, he must be immune for a period, dkw will say he's had time, but we all know this is a rebuild happening right now, not last season or the one before, it's totally unfair to judge him at the moment, good or bad.

I don't think that most of us are expecting the team to suddenly start playing fast, fluid football from this coming Saturday. But we should see some improvement by the November break for the WC.

[coco]

2 hours ago, dkw said:

So you are genuinely ok with how things have gone the past 12 months or so of his managerial time with us? Its all been on a downward slope since 2 wing backs got injured, he had absolutely no idea how to change things and use the squad to better effect from then, instead choosing to shove players out of position to suit his one way of playing, which was failing constantly. Like I said, if he had shown some idea on how to get us out of this funk, some sort of forward planning going on then fair enough, I would accept this kind of thinking. But to me up to now I haven't seen any of that at all, just muddling through with terrible football, sticking with the same failing ones match after match in their positions while moving others around them and misusing others constantly, all to suit his "style".

Now he has his squad, that might all change, and I truly hope it does and he leads us on to success playing superb football, battering teams, then I will change my opinion on him. I think thats allowed.

No i was not happy with the last 12 months, especially the bit where we had our club taken away from us.

It doesn't matter what happened before this season, that was the end of an era, this is a new beginning, carte-blanche, a new way of doing things.

You see it as a continuation, not a transformation, which is fair enough if you only judge him on performances with no consideration for the bigger picture.

 

 

 

[axman2526]

I don't believe we will make top 4 this season. To much upheaval. United, Spurs and Arsenal all better.

We will see how well the new owners view TT if I am right and we miss out on CL football next season.

[Hessleboink]

This time last season, we were top and Arsenal were bottom. They almost scraped top 4 (and we just about managed it). 

There's a long way to go this season. I'm very confident that we will improve, and both Spurs and Arsenal will drop off as the games pile up. Think we'll come top 3.