Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[Spiller86]

24 minutes ago, coco said:

I'm sick of the moaning 10% of fans tbh, way more than i'm sick of the team or TT. 

Aren't we all. 

[weetee]

43 minutes ago, RMH said:

I think yesterday was mostly positive from him. He addressed our midfield weakness by playing Kova, RLC and Gallagher, who did not get bullied as our midfield in previous games. He got ready a very solid and well oiled defensive line as well. The only thing most of us were questioning was his choice of Pulisic over Broja. Another positive was his subs were bang on, except Jorginho who had a horrid time but you could understand why he wanted to bring him on. And the way the team reacted when we went behind, something we haven’t seen for ages, is also a positive.

On the other side of the balance was that we were playing with 2 up front at home against a worse team, which suggested a more defensive focus on the game plan. But he had to strengthen the midfield for sure, so perhaps having played Sterling and Broja would have been a better option. Having this set of CB can probably let us move to a back 4 with Silva/Koulibaly and Fofana as CBs the future. As well, yesterday’s midfield 3 was solid and covered well the defensive line.

Having been a critic of Tuchel, I think that yesterday he showed some progress. At leas he instilled the right mentality into the team. Let’s hope this continues.

I don‘t think we habe mentality problem per se. When we were one man down for more than 2/3 of a game we also crawled back into the game and even managed a win - that was after a very frustrating 2:2 against Spurs where we got robbed of two points. 
 

some players imho should have a look into the mirror, I agree but as a group I think we don‘t have that problem. Also people seem to expect the team to function already at top level despite us having major changes in personell (defense/midfield/forwards) with the only constant is the goalkeeper position - who unfortunately hasn‘t had a game without a major mistake this season amd got bailed out twice big time already by the refs. If Koulibaly, Fofana, Cucurella settled in and Kova stays fit + finds form we‘re going to look much better by default and more fluid which should help our forwards. 
 

having a ‚new’ team playing against ultra defensive sides was always going to be an ugly affair - if our manager has to do part of the work of a DoF at the same time it‘s only getting worse.

Edited September 4, 2022 by weetee

[icecoolguy22]

Even a more matured Roman realised he couldn't just sack the manager everytime we got in trouble, just have to look at the calibre of managers we let go and ended up winning titles and cups elsewhere. It's the same reason some elite managers will ever work for us. Boehly did the right thing to back him in the transfer window, so whatever happens we have to stick with him until the season ends. It's only 6 games in for god sake, sure let's do a Watford and get Big Sam or Raneri in to play some exciting football.

[Sexyfootball]

I think TT got an awful lot of credit from Boehly for assuming more "DoF" responsibility when Marina went. It will be a while before he uses that up in my opinion ... 

[Guest Sindre]

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Not being super cautious? Do you really not believe thst the 500 passes between our CBs is not due to his instruction?

He has had 18 months to stop the endless slow, turgid and uninspired backwards/side to side passing. Yet he has either not wanted to or cannot. We play the same boring dross game in game out.

On the flip side, If it is genuinely not due to his instructions as you allude, why does he keep choosing players who ignore him!

The third thing, is if he genuinely does not want the players to play so slow and negatively, why has he not coached them out of it by now? He is no longer the new kid on the block and has had time. 

The odd times we do come out with the bit between our teeth and have instructions to take the hand break off we look like a half decent team. First half of the Madrid second leg last season for example. He clearly sent them out fired up to rip madrid a new one. He did the same against spurs in our second game this season.  But it is very rare.

And screaming at all the young lads and kids who actually try isn't much of a plus. Easy to scream at the likes of CHO, Timo and now gallagher. Yet he isn't screaming at Mendy for his constant dithering on the ball, Jorgi for his regular mistakes, Azpi for how slow plays these days, any of our other players who refuse to play the clearly on through ball, but instead knock it sideways. 
 

I am sick of it.

Where in the world is this rubbish about 18 months coming from? Seen it repeated by you and a few others.

Are you essentially saying you had complaints when we were smashing our way through Europe from January onwards last year? And climbing from 9th to 3rd by among other things beating City three times in a row, beating Liverpool and generally win most of our games while playing good football? 

Even dkw who's had it out for Tuchel since day 1 realized he had no grounds to complain so he had to make some sh*t up about Tuchel not using obscure youngsters enough and use that as the stick to beat him with. Now that Tuchel is playing a record amount of academy lads it's been awfully quiet about all that of course.

 

 

[evissy]

1 hour ago, CFCCAN said:

This sh*te is all down to him as a 'coach'.  Can't see what's in front of him and can't or won't fix the problems that are staring him in the face.  The fans see it, the pundits see it and criticize it, but it appears that he is too stubborn to change his philosophy, so I guess he will 'live by the sword, die by the sword'. In 18 months there are probably handful of games that you could walk away from and say we totally dominated decent opposition and walked away say 'wow we were great'. The rest has been been turgid, stale, unentertaining, pedestrian, mind numbing, boring football and some of the worse football from an entertaining stand point I can remember. For me he stifles talent, drills players to be defensive minded and when there is an opportunity to play forward they are so brainwashed of not giving the ball away that they would rather play safe than take the risk of playing a low % pass that may or may not come off.  

He's undoing is going to be all on him not the players...although one or two might provide an assist, although I did find this article and was surprised that his favoured formation is 4-3-3.  So while I can understand to stop the leaky defence when he came in he went with 3 at the back, why has he continued into this season, given that he could have built, bought players in and coached the team to play in a 4-3-3?  

https://themastermindsite.com/2020/08/20/thomas-tuchel-paris-saint-germain-tactical-analysis/ 

Hmmm...some of this I could agree with. Otherwise it is a pretty negative viewpoint on our current affairs. 

Under his tenure we have had games against the biggest possible teams in the world and have looked very good. This includes Liverpool, City and Real Madrid. He knows how to coach players and his team for these games. It is the other games that is the problem. Whether it is down to congested schedule, injuries or lack of gametime to certain players we don't have a core like City and Liverpool has. It is also certainly down to time as well. Pep and Klopp gave had their sides for 5 years. 

We also had this owner-saga which took time and energy from Tuchel as well. He just said in his post game presser he is glad he is now just the coach. You have to put all this into perspective. As an ambassador for our club he has done brilliant job IMO. He talks openly and you can tell he is a smart man. 

I trust his man management skills as well. He is on another level to Frank Lampard for example. When he came in he really took everyone under his wing and the rest is history so to say. 

The football at this very moment is horrible, there is no denying that. We are unentertaining and we pose very little threat to opponents. We defend okay but it is all down to experience of Silva and Koulibaly who is new to this league.

I really hope we can string some results together, maybe that takes some pressure off the players as well. Tuchel is very demanding which is one of his best qualities. You can see how he reacts to bad decisions in games. 

[Gol15]

11 hours ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I suppose it really is the players. 
 

 

He reacts like this mostly towards our younger players like last season it was the case with CHO and now with Gallagher. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Gol15

[CFCCAN]

40 minutes ago, evissy said:

Hmmm...some of this I could agree with. Otherwise it is a pretty negative viewpoint on our current affairs. 

Under his tenure we have had games against the biggest possible teams in the world and have looked very good. This includes Liverpool, City and Real Madrid. He knows how to coach players and his team for these games. It is the other games that is the problem. Whether it is down to congested schedule, injuries or lack of gametime to certain players we don't have a core like City and Liverpool has. It is also certainly down to time as well. Pep and Klopp gave had their sides for 5 years. 

We also had this owner-saga which took time and energy from Tuchel as well. He just said in his post game presser he is glad he is now just the coach. You have to put all this into perspective. As an ambassador for our club he has done brilliant job IMO. He talks openly and you can tell he is a smart man. 

I trust his man management skills as well. He is on another level to Frank Lampard for example. When he came in he really took everyone under his wing and the rest is history so to say. 

The football at this very moment is horrible, there is no denying that. We are unentertaining and we pose very little threat to opponents. We defend okay but it is all down to experience of Silva and Koulibaly who is new to this league.

I really hope we can string some results together, maybe that takes some pressure off the players as well. Tuchel is very demanding which is one of his best qualities. You can see how he reacts to bad decisions in games. 

I understand everything you've stated and I am sure some of the situations may contribute in one form or another to the current situation; however that that does not excuse the manager from continually setting up so defensively at home or even away against teams that we should be more than capable of beating.  I looked at the stats from last season, against City in the two league games we had 1 shot on goal, one with 0 shots on goal at home.  RM we had 9 and while Liverpool wasn't a true reflection given the first game we played with 10 men but in the 2 games we had 12, both of which in my opinion we played some decent football.  In the two games against Utd we had 8.   

With the squad he has at his disposal, ( yes I get it he has some new players over the last couple of weeks), we should not be watching what we saw yesterday and what we've seen far too many times over the start of this year and quite a number of times last year.  Clearly TT is not a terrible coach and he can get it generally right in one off cup or big games, but cannot get it right when he has to put a string of games together and get results. There is no consistency at the moment as there was at the start of last season and I think this is one of the reasons he picks more of a defensive set up hoping he can get a result rather than knowing he can get a result. He doesn't have to be cavalier in his approach, but he can't go on picking 8 defensive minded players or we are going to continue down this path of squeaky bum results, relying on VAR.   

I'm being more entertained this morning watching my home town team, Reading against Stoke, than what I've seen watching Chelsea (other than the Spurs game although they stood off us and made us look good) this year.

It will be interesting to see what team he puts out against Fulham. As good a Fulham have been we should be more than capable of going to the Cottage and picking up 3 points. 

[enigma]

Everyone bangs on about our style of play, and of course it could be better and I'm sure will be better by the time we have Aubameyang and Zakaria or Kante in the team, but watching Man City is hardly the definition is exciting football style. Sure, they do play decent football more times than not, but right now they are heavily reliant on Haaland to win them games. When our first 11 are settled and accustomed to each other and the league, I am sure we will play much better offensively. If we don't then I will be happy to admit I was wrong, but everyone wants some special coach whose going to win us game after game playing magestic football, which just isn't possible for the majority of coaches. I am already reading and hearing nonsense from some of our fans how they miss Conte and even Mourinho, just because they have been geting good results. I mean really, Conte at least has the benefit of Harry Kane leading the line for him. Tuchel does not have this luxury right now. If Aubameyang cannot hit much for us then I will worry a lot. 

[RMH]

2 hours ago, weetee said:

I don‘t think we habe mentality problem per se. When we were one man down for more than 2/3 of a game we also crawled back into the game and even managed a win - that was after a very frustrating 2:2 against Spurs where we got robbed of two points. 
 

some players imho should have a look into the mirror, I agree but as a group I think we don‘t have that problem. Also people seem to expect the team to function already at top level despite us having major changes in personell (defense/midfield/forwards) with the only constant is the goalkeeper position - who unfortunately hasn‘t had a game without a major mistake this season amd got bailed out twice big time already by the refs. If Koulibaly, Fofana, Cucurella settled in and Kova stays fit + finds form we‘re going to look much better by default and more fluid which should help our forwards. 
 

having a ‚new’ team playing against ultra defensive sides was always going to be an ugly affair - if our manager has to do part of the work of a DoF at the same time it‘s only getting worse.

I think we had mentality problems against Leeds and Southampton. We were bullied all over the pitch and the players and team did not react in a positive way to that. Yesterday was a different composure altogether, in my opinion, and a physical team like West Ham did get dominated fair and square by our players (Antonio got a good treatment and he resorted to falling and rolling as he could not get past Silva, really pathetic by a big lad like him). That’s what I mean. I agree with you also that some individual players were quite apathetic like Havertz and Mount, but yesterday they were up for it. That’s something we need to put down to Tuchel, the apathy in some games and the good intensity in yesterday’s. That’s why I think we should look at the positives from yesterday. Hopefully, this keeps going towards Tuesday, which should be a relatively easy game, and to Saturday agains a poor Fulham. And I have been critical of Tuchel.

[Sconnie Blue]

3 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Who kept Gallagher?

Who is playing Gallagher?

Who is playing Gallagher out of position?

Do we play the same boring football when Gallagher doesnt play? YES.

All on Tuchel.

I think its evident that from that clip, the argument that Tuchel is fine with this slow recycled football doesn't hold up anymore. None of these players are comfortable in taking risks, and this could be down to confidence in their own ability to do so. 

It feels like at this point we need some Conte esq system revolution for us to move forward. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Sconnie Blue

[weetee]

11 minutes ago, RMH said:

I think we had mentality problems against Leeds and Southampton. We were bullied all over the pitch and the players and team did not react in a positive way to that. Yesterday was a different composure altogether, in my opinion, and a physical team like West Ham did get dominated fair and square by our players (Antonio got a good treatment and he resorted to falling and rolling as he could not get past Silva, really pathetic by a big lad like him). That’s what I mean. I agree with you also that some individual players were quite apathetic like Havertz and Mount, but yesterday they were up for it. That’s something we need to put down to Tuchel, the apathy in some games and the good intensity in yesterday’s. That’s why I think we should look at the positives from yesterday. Hopefully, this keeps going towards Tuesday, which should be a relatively easy game, and to Saturday agains a poor Fulham. And I have been critical of Tuchel.

Maybe it‘s the wording, but imho being bullied by an excellent Leeds side doesn‘t equal a mentality problem per se. We were set up badly and had tremendous problems in midfield but it wasn‘t due lack of trying imho.

Our team hasn‘t really clicked well yet - and I think part of it is just down having that many new players + a couple of injuries that hit our midfield hard (and if you want also resulted in some bad calls by the coach tactical wise): that can also result in some players looking apathetic but isn‘t caused by a lack of motivation. And a newly built side will always take longer to implement attacking patterns and understandings than it takes for defensive systems. 
 

that‘s just my thinking though.

[EdinburghBlue]

On 01/09/2022 at 18:40, bisright1 said:

Carlo cool, but I said last 10. I said 10 deliberately. 

Frank lampard was never going to be klopp or arteta with time. He had no clue how to fix the issues, he had no plan. That's why he was sacked. 

If frank had stayed another 6 months, we'd have failed to qualify for Europe and we'd have failed to win the champions league. 

Why did you include Kepa and Alonso? Lampard got Mendy and Chilwell brought in! Conte got Costa out the club as well. This idea Roman didn't back his managers is nonsense. He backed the managers too much at times. 

Anyway, tuchel shouldn't be sacked now. And if Roman was still here and sacked him now, it would have been an anomaly, not the norm. Roman gave managers a lot more rope than people go on about. 

Our form of late is similar to how it was under Lampard when he was sacked? Arguable the style of football is even worse. Yet Tuchel shouldn’t be sacked but Lampard was 100% the right call? I’m sure I read somewhere our home form is the worst it’s been in 20 years and our win % in the PL in the last 8 months or so is shocking. 

As for the Lampard wouldn’t be Arteta with time… how do you know that as he wasn’t given time? Everyone was laughing at Arsenal last year and every year since he took over until now - they were down in the relegation places this time last season under him. 
 

No-one knows how it would have turned out but the club knew what they signed up for when we appointed a young manager with 2 years experience at Derby.

[nonotnowjim]

30 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

I think its evident that from that clip, the argument that Tuchel is fine with this slow recycled football doesn't hold up anymore. None of these players are comfortable in taking risks, and this could be down to confidence in their own ability to do so. 

It feels like at this point we need some Conte esq system revolution for us to move forward. 

If tuchel doesn't like the slow recycled football, then coach the players to stop playing it! If they refuse to stop playing it, drop them. 

It is really simple. He has been here long enough to have an impact on the training ground. 

[Sconnie Blue]

4 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

If tuchel doesn't like the slow recycled football, then coach the players to stop playing it! If they refuse to stop playing it, drop them. 

It is really simple. He has been here long enough to have an impact on the training ground. 

For me, it feels like mixed signals. He wants the players to keep the ball and retain possession, and at the same time he wants them to be adventurous in attack. Being adventurous means taking risks, thus losing the ball. 

I don't know. Like I said, at this point we either need the players to all magically come together or another Conte esq system revolution. 

[nonotnowjim]

2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He reacts like this mostly towards our younger players like last season it was the case with CHO and now with Gallagher. 

Yes - he is fine making a stand/point against young players.

Young Tammy doesn't do what he wants - dropped and sold (correctly in my opinion!)

Young CHO doesn't do what he wants, jumps around, screaming, then dropped out of the picture and then loaned.

Young Chalobah  doesn't do what he wants - dropped for long periods. 

Young Connor doesn't do what he wants, jumps and screams like an imbecile....

 

But TT is silent when old Mendy can't catch a cold and keeps passing it to opposition players

TT is silent when old Kante cost us goals in the champions league semi final that helped get us knocked out.

More silence when old Jorgi consistently plays pointless 2 yd passes or gives the ball away as he did to cost us chances against spurs.

Silent when old Dave constantly passes it sideways or backwards....

etc etc

 

 

 

[nonotnowjim]

2 minutes ago, Sconnie Blue said:

For me, it feels like mixed signals. He wants the players to keep the ball and retain possession, and at the same time he wants them to be adventurous in attack. Being adventurous means taking risks, thus losing the ball. 

I don't know. Like I said, at this point we either need the players to all magically come together or another Conte esq system revolution. 

I think simply sending the players out with the handbrake off is a start. Look at how we ripped into Madrid in the second leg, or how we dominated spurs this season. We can play progressive football, but rarely do.

[Sconnie Blue]

Every manager has favorites. You should hear what the Liverpool fans are saying about Klopp right now and his love for Milner and Henderson. 

[nonotnowjim]

I can't see Tickle getting sacked at the moment. Not after having such a say in the £250m we have just spent... and rightly so.

But....

He no longer has the excuse of it not being his squad.

He no longer has the excuse of sanctions.

He no longer has the excuse of previous transfer bans.

With champions league and 3x finals under their belt, he no longer has the excuse of inexperienced players.

With The donkey, turbo timo, ross the boss etc all gone, he no longer has the excuse of players he didn't want being here.

He has spent/spunked (time will tell) loads of cash to bring in his players - one of which is an old arsenal reject.

His excuses to get the team clicking and winning are running out....sink or swim.

Hope we swim and win the lot, but in 18 months of him being here, he here has been very little evidence that he can coach progressive/attacking/entertaining football. And when/if the winning dries up, he will be on borrowed time.

Edited September 4, 2022 by nonotnowjim

[2211]

100% back him.

1 - give him time with some players he’s bought to see how they gel.

2 - who else is there who would even stick up for us against the referees association and the FA. The reaction between when we was hard done against Spurs v the reaction from us benefitting against West Ham tells us all we need to know about how the powers that be and the media treat us differently.

[HazardousChoice]

53 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Our form of late is similar to how it was under Lampard when he was sacked? Arguable the style of football is even worse. Yet Tuchel shouldn’t be sacked but Lampard was 100% the right call? 

No-one knows how it would have turned out when we appointed a young manager with 2 years experience at Derby.

That's exactly the point.

Tuchel has significantly more credit in the bank than Lamps had as a manager.

It's far easier to trust that a manager that has won the champions league with us and been a successful trophy winner while playing attacking football in both France and Germany will get us playing that way than it is to hope a manager that had achieved next to nothing in his managerial career would suddenly take us to the next level.

Edited September 4, 2022 by HazardousChoice

[Sconnie Blue]

Tuchel for me has a lot of credit in the bank because of December - March of lasts season. Injuries to both wingbacks + our midfield collapsing with injuries. Not to mention bloody COVID and we were the only club to not benefit from the COVID postponement. Everyone else had a match rescheduled and extra rest but us. 

The fact he was able to steer us through that awful period is down to his management. I genuinely believe any other manager under our tenure would've collapsed. Deserves a lot of time to turn it around. 

[RMH]

1 hour ago, weetee said:

Maybe it‘s the wording, but imho being bullied by an excellent Leeds side doesn‘t equal a mentality problem per se. We were set up badly and had tremendous problems in midfield but it wasn‘t due lack of trying imho.

Our team hasn‘t really clicked well yet - and I think part of it is just down having that many new players + a couple of injuries that hit our midfield hard (and if you want also resulted in some bad calls by the coach tactical wise): that can also result in some players looking apathetic but isn‘t caused by a lack of motivation. And a newly built side will always take longer to implement attacking patterns and understandings than it takes for defensive systems. 
 

that‘s just my thinking though.

It could well be my wording, but I really meant bullied. I don’t know any other word for Pulisic’s treatment in Southampton other than to say that he was bullied off the ball, they were physical, went in with force and he’s not strong enough. The same can be said for our midfield and overall team in Leeds, they were weak and lost every single second ball for their lack of intensity in going in. Similar to what happened at Goodison Park last season, when you could see Havertz getting rattled by Everton players who were very physical and he was not capable of coping with it. That’s what I mean, the players have been losing the second balls most of the times against physical sides, and retracted from going to the tackle. Our players would be much better in a more technical league like the Spanish or German leagues, were players get more protection. But the EPL allows a lot more physicality and at some point these players have not coped. I think that it is a mentality thing and yesterday we were the better team in that battle and the players mentality was on it. That’s what I mean. Then again, it’s just my opinion and it is not more right than yours.

[Lampsy]

23 hours ago, evissy said:

Sounds like any Jose era. However we are so shaky and frail. I guess gelling and time could do something to it. And we need to find the backbone of the team. In the D it is how it is but we know the D battle is won in the midfield. That is still looking its shape and personnel 

In 04-05, we conceded 15 goals all year long. We've already conceded 9 goals and we're only 6 games in. Coincidentally, it was JM's first year and there was a crap load of transfers in and out and the guy still got them playing like they were machines.

I prefer free flowing attacking football but I can accept a defensive team if they're actually good at defending. What we can't have is a completely inept attack and still allow 1.5 goals a game. We look sh*t right now all over the park, that's not acceptable.

[bisright1]

1 hour ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Our form of late is similar to how it was under Lampard when he was sacked? Arguable the style of football is even worse. Yet Tuchel shouldn’t be sacked but Lampard was 100% the right call? I’m sure I read somewhere our home form is the worst it’s been in 20 years and our win % in the PL in the last 8 months or so is shocking. 

As for the Lampard wouldn’t be Arteta with time… how do you know that as he wasn’t given time? Everyone was laughing at Arsenal last year and every year since he took over until now - they were down in the relegation places this time last season under him. 
 

No-one knows how it would have turned out but the club knew what they signed up for when we appointed a young manager with 2 years experience at Derby.

Answer to all of this is that Lampard gave me zero confidence that he had a plan at any stage of his management. That he had any tactical nous. The only difference between him and Steve Bruce was that Franks better looking. 

Tuchel doesn't give me that vibe. But if this form continues for a couple more months, then he needs to go as like you say, he's had a long time to fix our team. And there's no better value in swapping now vs in a couple of months. 

Arteta had a plan, it clearly needed time as he started with an awful team. I actually wasn't laughing at them because they were signing good youngsters and had the room to let the team grow. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by bisright1