44 minutes ago, Lampsy said:

In 04-05, we conceded 15 goals all year long. We've already conceded 9 goals and we're only 6 games in. Coincidentally, it was JM's first year and there was a crap load of transfers in and out and the guy still got them playing like they were machines.

I prefer free flowing attacking football but I can accept a defensive team if they're actually good at defending. What we can't have is a completely inept attack and still allow 1.5 goals a game. We look sh*t right now all over the park, that's not acceptable.

None of the current midfield or forwards would get anywhere near the 04/05 team, and that is the crux of the problem, and is why patience is required as it will take more than one transfer window to redress ... 

Off the top of my head I recall Tuchel absolutely losing it on the touchline on more than one occasion with Mendy after he mis-kicked a few goal kicks out for a throw, so it's clearly not something targeted at the younger players.

12 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

None of the current midfield or forwards would get anywhere near the 04/05 team, and that is the crux of the problem, and is why patience is required as it will take more than one transfer window to redress ... 

Speaking of midfielders. Watching United v Arsenal you realize how much we are lacking in terms of creativity from midfield. Fernandes & Eriksen are playing passes we can just dream of seeing from any of our midfielders or attackers for that matter.

We have a long way to go as you imply.

 

Man Utd under Ten Haag are playing better football after 6 matches than we are.

5 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Man Utd under Ten Haag are playing better football after 6 matches than we are.

I think it’s easier to play that way and looks entertaining.. given they are set up to counter attack and happy to concede posession.. when Lamps started out he did well in that set up. This generally works well against big teams not as much against smaller ones .. look at how Utd struggle against them..

I am ok with us playing more posession style but with a slightly more forward thinking approach and having more than 3 attack minded players on the pitch.

29 minutes ago, jack_super_class said:

Man Utd under Ten Haag are playing better football after 6 matches than we are.

Funny what a bit of coaching and attacking instruction will do!

I cannot believe that some people on here believe our players, elite players no less, who are paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week, can't pass the ball more the 5 yrds sideways of backwards! Simply blaming the fact we don't have fernandes or eriksen is almost as lazy as our tepid and unimaginative play. 

Kova, Jorgi, James, Cucu, Mount, Kai, Sterling are all more than capable of creative forward passes - we are just allowed off the leash to play that way. 

25 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Funny what a bit of coaching and attacking instruction will do!

I cannot believe that some people on here believe our players, elite players no less, who are paid hundreds of thousands of pounds a week, can't pass the ball more the 5 yrds sideways of backwards! Simply blaming the fact we don't have fernandes or eriksen is almost as lazy as our tepid and unimaginative play. 

Kova, Jorgi, James, Cucu, Mount, Kai, Sterling are all more than capable of creative forward passes - we are just allowed off the leash to play that way. 

What do your own eyes tell you ? 

Effectively we have 5 new players and that's not even considering Auba, so  Cucurella, Koulibaly, Fofana, Gallagher and Broja.

Broja has been injured and Fofana has played just once.

Add in injuries to Kante and Kovacic and poor form is better understood.

For me he needs time and by the Villa match if we have not turned a corner then he should start to come under pressure.

It is not going to be easy though as we are playing twice a week due to CL in a world cup year.

1 hour ago, jack_super_class said:

Man Utd under Ten Haag are playing better football after 6 matches than we are.

Shush!

38 minutes ago, Sexyfootball said:

What do your own eyes tell you ? 

I have seen our players rip into other teams and play amazing attacking football.

So they can do it. 

My eyes tell me that Tuchel invariably has the players set up to play slow, uninventive, low risk football. 

 

2 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

None of the current midfield or forwards would get anywhere near the 04/05 team, and that is the crux of the problem, and is why patience is required as it will take more than one transfer window to redress ... 

That campaign was literally the result of one transfer window. New manager, new system, new goalie, Carvalho and Ferreira were new, Robben and Drogba's first year. Got rid of a lot of players that summer too. It was a very different team than the one from the year before.

Tuchel doesn't have the excuse of one transfer window, he's had this team for a bit, he has a system in place, there's carry over from the years before. I'm not saying he doesn't have any challenges, but to say that we look as bad as any of Mourinho's years here (which was the point of the post I replied to) is a ton of sh*t. My original comment was simply in response to that. No problem looking inept in attack if that means we are defensively sound but you can't be conceding goals like we are and still have no attack.

 

24 minutes ago, Lampsy said:

That campaign was literally the result of one transfer window. New manager, new system, new goalie, Carvalho and Ferreira were new, Robben and Drogba's first year. Got rid of a lot of players that summer too. It was a very different team than the one from the year before.

Tuchel doesn't have the excuse of one transfer window, he's had this team for a bit, he has a system in place, there's carry over from the years before. I'm not saying he doesn't have any challenges, but to say that we look as bad as any of Mourinho's years here (which was the point of the post I replied to) is a ton of sh*t. My original comment was simply in response to that. No problem looking inept in attack if that means we are defensively sound but you can't be conceding goals like we are and still have no attack.

 

You're missing the point that none of the 2022/23 midfielders and forwards would get into the 2004/05 side. When they were signed is irrelevant.

We're talking Robben and Duff vs Pulisic and Ziyech ffs. Lampard vs Kovacic, Makelele vs Jorginho etc etc. If it was a boxing contest it would be stopped after 30 seconds 🙂 

So if Tommy T knows how Auba plays, or how they set up at Dortmund, do we now expect a quicker game to utilise our new hope?

5 hours ago, Lampsy said:

In 04-05, we conceded 15 goals all year long. We've already conceded 9 goals and we're only 6 games in. Coincidentally, it was JM's first year and there was a crap load of transfers in and out and the guy still got them playing like they were machines.

I prefer free flowing attacking football but I can accept a defensive team if they're actually good at defending. What we can't have is a completely inept attack and still allow 1.5 goals a game. We look sh*t right now all over the park, that's not acceptable.

I doubt we could achieve that in todays premier league. Maybe we could but the overall standard is far higher. Then we were the only team throwing money at it, now half the teams have the money to buy the world elite. Still that team was better in defence although no left back. We have a 38 yr old in central defence. 

Why would you want to sack a football genius?

1 minute ago, Scott said:

Why would you want to sack a football genius?

Not bald enough.

On 03/09/2022 at 13:53, dkw said:

Today's win was the very definition of "papering over the cracks" wasn't it 

I'm not sure whether it was a papering over the cracks or understanding that the assembled squad is not ready for a title challenge and he was looking forward to the mid-week CL game, or maybe he was painting a picture for TB that Pulisic and one or two others should have gone during the window.  I think by the time this team does eventually get settled any aspirations of a title or top 4 just might be out of his grasp; on the other hand by the time the team should begin to gel we will hopefully be in the last 16 of the CL and who knows miracles may happen again.....after all IMHO he appears to be more of a cup competition manager rather than entirely focusing on the league.  In the short time he's been here his cup run record cannot be questioned and had we have won the League Cup and FA Cup his trophy haul in one and bit seasons would have been up there with the best.  Sadly though bragging rights is about the league title and in a very short time City have strolled past us in terms of titles and no doubt will add one or two more before we win the title again.

While it is understood this season was 'transitional' a top 4 certainly would be a minimum requirement with a serious title challenge in 2023/24.  While it's still early days, based on what we have seen from the league form and his team selections, I am wondering where this top 4 challenge is going to come from. If you can't score goals in this league, as a team you are going to struggle to be in the top 6 let alone the top 4.   Perhaps PEA teaming up with Sterling / Havertz / Broja and Mount might be the answer although like many others, and I have been saying it for sometime, is our midfield lacks muscle and a creative midfielder, I was surprised we never spent the time really looking for one or two players in the centre of the park. FDJ was pie in the sky from the outset but I guess TB thought there was a slight chance.  While Jorginho has his moments, more often than not he's caught on the ball especially against a team that will press high and only on occasion will he look for a defence splitting pass. We all know that his passing is either sideways or backwards to keep things ticking over, wonderful, except the ball in not going in the right direction. The importance of a fit Kante and Kovacic cannot be underestimated, sadly neither seems to see an entire season through without injury causing TT further headaches that he may or may not solve in the future.  

While I have been extremely critical of his tactics, team selections and pragmatic approach to games, for me he has to show a big improvement in our league form, and I don't expect us to win every game only the ones we should be winning, because the smoke and mirrors of cup competitions won't work on me any longer.   

He's got till the WC break for me, with no improvement his life at CFC will be short lived and deservedly so given the money that has been spent on players that were largely his picks by all accounts.

4 hours ago, Sexyfootball said:

You're missing the point that none of the 2022/23 midfielders and forwards would get into the 2004/05 side. When they were signed is irrelevant.

We're talking Robben and Duff vs Pulisic and Ziyech ffs. Lampard vs Kovacic, Makelele vs Jorginho etc etc. If it was a boxing contest it would be stopped after 30 seconds 🙂 

I didn't compare which team was better. I responded to the notion that Mourinho's teams weren't attack minded.

My response is simple. If we can't be attack minded then at least we should be good defensively. It's not that complicated.

600M+ pounds spent in 3 years should allow us to be amazing defenders OR have a very good attack. 

53 minutes ago, CFCCAN said:

I'm not sure whether it was a papering over the cracks or understanding that the assembled squad is not ready for a title challenge and he was looking forward to the mid-week CL game, or maybe he was painting a picture for TB that Pulisic and one or two others should have gone during the window.  I think by the time this team does eventually get settled any aspirations of a title or top 4 just might be out of his grasp; on the other hand by the time the team should begin to gel we will hopefully be in the last 16 of the CL and who knows miracles may happen again.....after all IMHO he appears to be more of a cup competition manager rather than entirely focusing on the league.  In the short time he's been here his cup run record cannot be questioned and had we have won the League Cup and FA Cup his trophy haul in one and bit seasons would have been up there with the best.  Sadly though bragging rights is about the league title and in a very short time City have strolled past us in terms of titles and no doubt will add one or two more before we win the title again.

While it is understood this season was 'transitional' a top 4 certainly would be a minimum requirement with a serious title challenge in 2023/24.  While it's still early days, based on what we have seen from the league form and his team selections, I am wondering where this top 4 challenge is going to come from. If you can't score goals in this league, as a team you are going to struggle to be in the top 6 let alone the top 4.   Perhaps PEA teaming up with Sterling / Havertz / Broja and Mount might be the answer although like many others, and I have been saying it for sometime, is our midfield lacks muscle and a creative midfielder, I was surprised we never spent the time really looking for one or two players in the centre of the park. FDJ was pie in the sky from the outset but I guess TB thought there was a slight chance.  While Jorginho has his moments, more often than not he's caught on the ball especially against a team that will press high and only on occasion will he look for a defence splitting pass. We all know that his passing is either sideways or backwards to keep things ticking over, wonderful, except the ball in not going in the right direction. The importance of a fit Kante and Kovacic cannot be underestimated, sadly neither seems to see an entire season through without injury causing TT further headaches that he may or may not solve in the future.  

While I have been extremely critical of his tactics, team selections and pragmatic approach to games, for me he has to show a big improvement in our league form, and I don't expect us to win every game only the ones we should be winning, because the smoke and mirrors of cup competitions won't work on me any longer.   

He's got till the WC break for me, with no improvement his life at CFC will be short lived and deservedly so given the money that has been spent on players that were largely his picks by all accounts.

I don't think what we have done in the league previously will be enough for top 4. Thw challange is far great and all of Spurs, Arsenal, United and Newcastle are better or much better than they were for the last 2 seasons.

Focus will always be on on CL. No point making a point of qualifying then ignoring the competition, but the league cup and FA Cup won't be season defining success or losses this season imo. 

TT does have tools at his disposal. We have not seen the best of Koulibaly, and many regard him as one of the best defenders on the planet. Fofana one of the best young defenders. He has the striker he wanted, he has James and Mount, he has Silva and his ageless amazingness. 

He has a lot of good parts he needs to form in to a cohesive machine. Though I am concerned our goalkeeper will prove a major flaw.

I don't understand why we keep insisting that our offensive problem is not because of Tuchel. Against west ham, it took one tiny tweak by Tuchel and we looked 10 times better offensively. 

I think what is more important is how more offensive can we go before we look vulnerable defensively? 

This season we have played 442,343,352.

352 is just a snooze system. I wrote a thread showing tuchel new 442 hybrid and although it is more expansive but it also expose our midfield more. 343 is imo still our most balance system, it is still a snooze fest but not as bad as 352.

35 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

I don't understand why we keep insisting that our offensive problem is not because of Tuchel. Against west ham, it took one tiny tweak by Tuchel and we looked 10 times better offensively. 

I think what is more important is how more offensive can we go before we look vulnerable defensively? 

This season we have played 442,343,352.

352 is just a snooze system. I wrote a thread showing tuchel new 442 hybrid and although it is more expansive but it also expose our midfield more. 343 is imo still our most balance system, it is still a snooze fest but not as bad as 352.

Everytime we concede a corner, or free kick. So the key to looking good defensively is don't concede any corners, free kicks or have Mendy need to do anything.

There is ton of kneejerking here over Tuchel.

He is still the best available manager on the market. By some distance I think.

He has said many times the team is in transition. He doesn't know whether this lot is elite or functioning in 5 games or in 2 seasons. What Boehly is expecting is the team to be competing head to head with City inside an unknown period. He wants us to aspire higher than Arsenal or Tottenham. Currently we are fighting with them. 

It remains to be seen how long Tommy is given time to make things work. We are not under Roman, we can't tell what type of leader Todd is. 

I am hoping we get the new sporting director in who gets along with TT. That would give him time to just coach.

We are still plagued with injuries as well. He is currently patching a team to a game hoping it works. It is not optimal. Far from it.

 

 

13 minutes ago, evissy said:

There is ton of kneejerking here over Tuchel.

He is still the best available manager on the market. By some distance I think.

He has said many times the team is in transition. He doesn't know whether this lot is elite or functioning in 5 games or in 2 seasons. What Boehly is expecting is the team to be competing head to head with City inside an unknown period. He wants us to aspire higher than Arsenal or Tottenham. Currently we are fighting with them. 

It remains to be seen how long Tommy is given time to make things work. We are not under Roman, we can't tell what type of leader Todd is. 

I am hoping we get the new sporting director in who gets along with TT. That would give him time to just coach.

We are still plagued with injuries as well. He is currently patching a team to a game hoping it works. It is not optimal. Far from it.

 

 

transitioning to what?   The last 20 games have looked more like regression.

 

I wouldnt. We have had alot of new signings and you can see it clearly that he is trying to change our system trying to find the best team and that takes time as we need to remain competitive too.

When you think of Arteta, started very poorly with Arsenal and everyone was calling for his head. Look at them now.

We were for large crap on Saturday, and lucky to win with that decision right at the end. 

That being said, Tuchel's subs at 1-0 down effectively won us the game. Chilwell come on to get a goal and an assist and Havertz scoring the winner. Also Broja looked busy and put himself about and caused a few issues for West Ham's defence. So he got his subs right and we won the game as a result. In my opinion he deserves a bit of credit for that.

The first half was absolutely dire. Possibly a combination of Tuchel and the team not having much confidence at the moment and being scared to take risks, but a few tweaks in the second half and we looked decent again I thought, bar Jorginho and Mendy trying their best to gift West Ham a second goal. 

If you can get 3 points whilst not playing all that well, it's not the worst thing. Gives us something to build on and now hopefully with the new players coming in the system will change slightly and we will be a bit more attack minded. 

Tuchel is taking a bit of a bashing on here at the moment, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly. In my opinion he got his changes right on Saturday and that's what won us the game. Yes we got lucky at the end, but we got robbed of a VAR decision against Spurs where we should've won the game, and no doubt we will get dodgy decisions go against us again through the course of the season.