13 hours ago, big blue said:

Werner's finishing has been woeful, no excuses for that, however yesterday there was space in behind and down the channels, and there was numerous occasions when Werner got in between defenders, on the last man, but the players on the ball just dont see it. 

We constantly played as if it was giroud up top. Fabregas or David Luiz would've been serving them up on a plate, but we just dont have that vision and passing quality in the team now. 

Maybe it is more of a chemistry thing, but either way, it needs work. I would even consider playing ziyech as one of the 8's so we can utilize his passing from deep, rather than having him just whip balls in. He played more as an 8 against us at the bridge, and was sensational. It would also allow us to have both pulisic and CHO keeping width. The trouble is who plays alongside him, It would have to be Kante and either Mount or Havertz, but defensively it could leave us exposed. Incidently the midfield 3 he played in at ajax had Van de beek, and Martinez, so maybe not too dissimilar to a kante + havertz/mount. 

We need to try different things. I want CHO to play and let's try Ziyech in the midfield like you said...with Pulisic and Werner making so many runs it might be perfect.....Havertz and Kante.  And park Kante in front of our cbs and leave him there. With Havertz and Ziyech we don't need Kante anywhere near the goal. 

On 05/01/2021 at 08:30, Browerkid said:

We need to try different things. I want CHO to play and let's try Ziyech in the midfield like you said...with Pulisic and Werner making so many runs it might be perfect.....Havertz and Kante.  And park Kante in front of our cbs and leave him there. With Havertz and Ziyech we don't need Kante anywhere near the goal. 

I am not convinced with a midfield of Havertz, Kante and Ziyech, having a right side which consists of James, Ziyech & CHO would leave us completely open to any sort of counter on that right side.

I understand we need creativity from midfield but we cannot just start sticking attacking players in Central midfield and hope it works, we lose the energy off the ball and hence concede the control in midfield.

I know there have been some suggestions that Werner needs to be played down the middle. However if you look at the lineups our best form this season was with Werner on the left and Ziyech on the right, with either Tammy or Giroud in the middle. When Ziyech was injured against Leeds we brought Pulisic in, and he is best on the left. As a result Werner was moved to the right and that seems to be where his form really dipped. I would play Werner on the left, if necessary rotating with Pulisic. Then rotate CHO and Ziyech on the right. With the frequency at which our wingers seem to be injured we would probably need all 4 players in those 2 positions. 

Edited January 6, 20215 yr by forbzy

5 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I know there have been some suggestions that Werner needs to be played down the middle. However if you look at the lineups our best form this season was with Werner on the left and Ziyech on the right, with either Tammy or Giroud in the middle. When Ziyech was injured against Leeds we brought Pulisic in, and he is best on the left. As a result Werner was moved to the right and that seems to be where his form really dipped. I would play Werner on the left, if necessary rotating with Pulisic. Then rotate CHO and Ziyech on the right. With the frequency at which our wingers seem to be injured we would probably need all 4 players in those 2 positions. 

Pulisic’s place in the side should be and deserves to be off the cards totally, he’s our star man. Pulisic will cut inside and drift anyway, as per any patterns in play, no reason why Werner shouldn’t be able to adapt to this and start together. In the end, if Werner is to flop due to these circumstances, then so be it.. he cost £10m more than Sir Danny Drinkwater when it all comes down to it.

In Germany he only scored in 3 games from 21 starts as a central forward against Munich and Dortmund aged 18-23.

Now 24yo in the Prem he started 9 games v top 10 teams and scored twice against Southampton.

Looks like he struggles against the better teams/defenders.

Don't think he will ever be reliable enough to own the central role.

16 hours ago, coco said:

In Germany he only scored in 3 games from 21 starts as a central forward against Munich and Dortmund aged 18-23.

Now 24yo in the Prem he started 9 games v top 10 teams and scored twice against Southampton.

Looks like he struggles against the better teams/defenders.

Don't think he will ever be reliable enough to own the central role.

But, but, but....... Where are the pie charts and Venn diagrams to prove this???

No pictures?  It never happened.

I can knock up a pie chart if your'e in need of stimulation.

Just now, coco said:

I can knock up a pie chart if your'e in need of stimulation.

Careful, kids can access this forum 

So far from his performances it is pretty clear that his best role is possibly as the 2nd striker and should probably be used alongside Giroud/Tammy maybe in a 4-2-4 or 4-2-3-1. The challenge with that is he would probably be taking Kai's position as that floating player around the striker unless you play both of them and our genuine forward misses out.

23 hours ago, Term_X said:

Pulisic’s place in the side should be and deserves to be off the cards totally, he’s our star man. Pulisic will cut inside and drift anyway, as per any patterns in play, no reason why Werner shouldn’t be able to adapt to this and start together. In the end, if Werner is to flop due to these circumstances, then so be it.. he cost £10m more than Sir Danny Drinkwater when it all comes down to it.

I agree Pulisic should be starting ahead of Werner on current form. However he should not be untouchable and will also need rest from time to time. Not to mention it seems like he is prone to injuries. So I think use Werner as the back up on the left wing for now. Both of our center forwards have done OK this season and scored a reasonable number of goals. There is no reason they should be dropped to make way for Werner in the middle.

Still pretty poor, despite the goal. Giroud has to be starting ahead of him now.

All today was about was getting a goal, and he got it. Hopefully he plays centre forward VS Fulham, be a better game to judge him.

Edited January 10, 20215 yr by jack_super_class

On 06/01/2021 at 19:10, coco said:

In Germany he only scored in 3 games from 21 starts as a central forward against Munich and Dortmund aged 18-23.

Now 24yo in the Prem he started 9 games v top 10 teams and scored twice against Southampton.

Looks like he struggles against the better teams/defenders.

Don't think he will ever be reliable enough to own the central role.

Yes and Abraham and Giroud should "own" the central role lol

Werner is our best bet to have a wc striker in the coming years .We probably won't be getting Haaland or someone similar so we should give him every opportunity to succeed here .Playing 34 (soon to be 35) year old Giroud constantly just won't help us in the long run.We have to get Werner firing.

 

He scored, so let him start up to vs Fulham with Havertz behind him. 

I am struggling to see how he is a threat when teams sit deep. I thought he was woeful today - despite the tap in, and offered very little in terms of threat, creation or link up. 
 

We just don't play to his strengths. 

 

15 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

I am struggling to see how he is a threat when teams sit deep. I thought he was woeful today - despite the tap in, and offered very little in terms of threat, creation or link up. 
 

We just don't play to his strengths. 

I was pleased he scored yet also have concerns.

His touch was poor and his passes not quite crisp enough. 

I would hope the goal gives him confidence and other areas of his game improve yet just maybe he is not a good fit for a possession based side.  

With the form he's in, there should be at least two players ahead of him in every position across the forward line. For what it's worth he should be an effective player off the bench...

5 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

I am struggling to see how he is a threat when teams sit deep. I thought he was woeful today - despite the tap in, and offered very little in terms of threat, creation or link up. 
 

We just don't play to his strengths. 

 

I agree with this. Great that he scored but even against a team we should be dominating he was invisible.

14 minutes ago, Browerkid said:

I agree with this. Great that he scored but even against a team we should be dominating he was invisible.

Hardly his fault, I think I must be in the minority today but I was annoyed with how we played today. We’re playing a league 2 team and we still play it out wide, with the full backs pushing ahead of wingers, waiting for the ball to cross into box.

I want to see us play some football through the middle, how hard can it be? If we did, Werner would have thrived imo. Constant crossing and keeping possession so opponents have time to park the bus and put the handbrake on, turn the engine off and read a book.

Werner thrives on fast football imo, with his pace and we do anything but fast.

27 minutes ago, dansubrosa said:

Hardly his fault, I think I must be in the minority today but I was annoyed with how we played today. We’re playing a league 2 team and we still play it out wide, with the full backs pushing ahead of wingers, waiting for the ball to cross into box.

I want to see us play some football through the middle, how hard can it be? If we did, Werner would have thrived imo. Constant crossing and keeping possession so opponents have time to park the bus and put the handbrake on, turn the engine off and read a book.

Werner thrives on fast football imo, with his pace and we do anything but fast.

You are not in the minority, i said during the match chat, that our possession based 'Barca' style pass pass pass with no end product allowed them to play with a back 5, or 3 centre backs, there was no room , someone said he'd be ideal the way Leicester or Utd are currently playing, a win is a win, but this aint helping in the long term, play just looks like 11 good players just winging it atm..

2 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

Hardly his fault, I think I must be in the minority today but I was annoyed with how we played today. We’re playing a league 2 team and we still play it out wide, with the full backs pushing ahead of wingers, waiting for the ball to cross into box.

I want to see us play some football through the middle, how hard can it be? If we did, Werner would have thrived imo. Constant crossing and keeping possession so opponents have time to park the bus and put the handbrake on, turn the engine off and read a book.

Werner thrives on fast football imo, with his pace and we do anything but fast.

I get your point. I just haven't been impressed with Timo in tight spaces.

 

Look at the goal Gundogan scored against us in the Man City game. World class turn away from Tiago Silva and slots it in the corner.   I thought that would be how Timo would be scoring some of his goals. We just haven't seen much of it. 

Someone said in the match thread when Ziyech supplied CHO with a sublime pass into the box for his goal, "thats the kind of ball Werner needs"

The irony was the only reason CHO was on the end of that pass was because Timo had vacated the space, otherwise it would of been him on the end of it.

He's not making the right choices a lot of the time, people say he needs to play down the middle, but when he does he has to be better than he was against Morecombe, because thats how most of the prem league will play against us, behind the ball in their own half, not spread out all over the pitch with space to attack. He'd be great for  Leicester or Villa, he'd probably be the leagues top scorer.

 

15 hours ago, coco said:

Someone said in the match thread when Ziyech supplied CHO with a sublime pass into the box for his goal, "thats the kind of ball Werner needs"

The irony was the only reason CHO was on the end of that pass was because Timo had vacated the space, otherwise it would of been him on the end of it.

He's not making the right choices a lot of the time, people say he needs to play down the middle, but when he does he has to be better than he was against Morecombe, because thats how most of the prem league will play against us, behind the ball in their own half, not spread out all over the pitch with space to attack. He'd be great for  Leicester or Villa, he'd probably be the leagues top scorer.

 

That's a bit harsh because Werner has been making runs before yet nobody could pick him up with a nice ball, he's clearly showing that he can drop deep and take some players with him which in turn opens the space for a winger to cut-inside.

It's still the best to play him as the striker as he really is a striker and he's clearly doing a lot more there off the ball and making himself either a decoy or the available target for a good ball, as long as he keeps playing in this role he will eventually go back in a good shape, specially if Havertz keeps playing a more attack-oriented role.

On 11/01/2021 at 11:30, coco said:

Someone said in the match thread when Ziyech supplied CHO with a sublime pass into the box for his goal, "thats the kind of ball Werner needs"

The irony was the only reason CHO was on the end of that pass was because Timo had vacated the space, otherwise it would of been him on the end of it.

He's not making the right choices a lot of the time, people say he needs to play down the middle, but when he does he has to be better than he was against Morecombe, because thats how most of the prem league will play against us, behind the ball in their own half, not spread out all over the pitch with space to attack. He'd be great for  Leicester or Villa, he'd probably be the leagues top scorer.

 

Agreed. I imagine he would get more opportunities of that type in games we are playing on the counter e.g. on the road against the top teams. In that case perhaps we need to consider a different position for him for other games. He did pretty well operating on the left of the front 3 while Pulisic was out.