2 hours ago, brownindian said:

No amount of passion is going to help me if i get into the ring with Mike Tyson. While Chelsea's case is not so bleak I would say that it is not lack of passion for why we lost. Why do you feel that way ? I am curious.

What i saw was a Chelsea team that was physically hounded, harried and were misplacing passes. They were not running relaxed or casually. Even towards the end of the game we were trying but we just could not get it right. Alonso was making runs, Caesar was making runs everyone did the best they could. This Arsenal team came to trouble us and once they got the lead they sat back and defended deep and tried to hit us on counter. We sadly are in a goal scoring rut and that is why we lost. I could count a few instances - a Luiz pass to Pedro that was on the wrong side for Pedro, Hazard through ball across the goal with no one at the end of it, Alonso header, Kante in a good position to shoot but got out defended. If we lacked passion - all these chances would not be created. 

I am going to assume that u are a Chelsea fan for longer than Sarri has joined us. Do you remember how Chelsea played under Conte or Mourinho when they were dead men walking ? To me, that felt more like lack of passion than this display. Also, this season there have been many instances where after taking the lead we decided to sit back and ease letting the other team into the game, that too you can say is cos of lack of passion. This game against Arsenal was lost not cos Chelsea lacked passion, but because Arsenal came better prepared.

Before when the bus was parked it was a given that nobody needed to try and play with possession in order to win, today Sarri wants the team to go out there and outplay opponents with their movement of the ball and without it in transition.

For this to work against a team that is ready for it the mentality needs to be clear and decisive. Even vs Barcelona we tactically shut them down but, they were mentally stronger and someone made a mistake and they scored from nothing because they had the will to not come back home empty handed.

Now if tactically we lost before the game started, it means that only the superior moral and mentality of the players can save the team, but this squad just gives up as soon as the wind starts blowing in their faces. How did the previous generation won the Champions league, it wasn't due to some briliant tactic or supperior players but the strong Chelsea rejection of the notion of defeat.

3 hours ago, brownindian said:

No amount of passion is going to help me if i get into the ring with Mike Tyson.

You lost me at this point, for that comparison to be even remotely comparible. You’re basically saying that that arsenal side are one of the best ever and we’re an amateur football team. 

 

That is not a top quality arsenal side, it’s a very very mediocre one. The hunger and desire to win that game from arsenal was clear for everyone to see. Within about 2 minutes of the game we’d passed the ball straight out the park on a couple of occasions. That shows a couple of things, a lack of concentration because we know that they can do it & a lack of work ethic to make options for their team mates so that doesn’t happen. 

 

It’s not a coincidence that so many people see it the same way, this team lacks bottle/grit determination. The attitude of the players is toxic. There’s no way that three managers on the bounce have said the exact same thing about the same group of players.

11 hours ago, dkw said:

Sarri should be empowered to sort out this bunch of f**kers we have who pick and choose when to put the effort in or not. Go into training tomorrow, tell them to either give 100% and play for him or speak up now and f**k off out of this club. I don't care which of them wants to leave anymore, too many of them don't give a sh*t.f**k them.

Couldn’t agree more mate. I’ve had enough of the player power in the club. This isn’t the Terry, Lampard, Drogba era.

 

I honestly wouldn’t care which of them wants to leave, even Hazard, I really like him as a player but the constant flirting with Madrid every transfer window or when he’s with Belgium bores me. Same if it was Azpilicueta as much as it would devastate me (I can’t imagine him being s troublemaker tbh). But it doesn’t matter now, there’s no one that should be untouchable anymore. I’m so sick of reading about player power at Chelsea. Three managers on the bounce have spoken about the poor attitudes of players - that is no coincidence in my book. It’s a deep rooted problem and until the board stand with a manager and eradicate it - things will never change.

19 hours ago, Backbiter said:

Spot-on article here:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/20/chelsea-maurizio-sarri-mess-tactics-transfer-policy

Brilliant article that sums up the issues for me.

This really is the problem in a nut-shell !!  Having a "Coach" who has zero responsibility for player recruitment has been and will continue to be a disaster at this Club until the policy changes. Look at the currently more successful Guardiola, Klopp and Pochetinno, all of these guys have a say in the players that their Clubs buy, and then they actually use them, because they were bought for a specific purpose in whatever tactical system they employ,  whereas at Chelsea the Owner (vanity), Board (Emanalo) and now Marina (God help us) are buying players that simply are not good enough or are unable to play in the system the Coach chooses (can you see Marina sitting down to discuss tactics with Sarri ???)

As good as Mourinho was, even he struggled with this, as ultimately did Conte and now Sarri.   It comes across as the Coach losing the dressing room, but in reality it is the contractual and financial strength of present day very ORDINARY players who do not want to get off the lucrative gravy-train at Chelsea to go elsewhere for less money. They therefore kick up, sulk, withdraw a % of their labour until the Club makes another managerial change.  Our problem is NOT the issue of the Coach, it is all down to the players !!

We MUST change this and bring in either a MANAGER who is also responsible for recruitment or a Director of Football with a proven pedigree who can work with Sarri and get him what he wants and needs.  Looking at this squad player for player against the first XI of the current top 3, it is no longer good enough. That is the simple inescapable truth. Only Hazard and Kante would get in the City or Liverpool sides, and where we used to have strength in depth on the bench, we now have (Hudson-Odoi exempted) below par journeymen.  I think we will have to dismantle this side, even selling Hazard, to finance the purchase of better players and allow for the integration of exceptional youngsters such as Ampadu, Hudson-Odoi and RLC, but and it is a big BUT, we can only do this after sorting out exactly who is responsible for players recruitment. WE have had an almost conveyor belt like supply of really good youngsters from all over the World into the Youth team, so our scouting squad clearly knows what it is doing. Is there not someone in that group of men who could rise to the challenge of mixing top quality signings with the undoubted ability of the Youth that they have already delivered?

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by coombsie

15 hours ago, Luca Vialli said:

If Poch and Klopp get four years plus without winning anything then we should extend Sarri the same compliment.

Difference is Sarri inherited a team that has won the title within the last two seasons. 

Klopp and Poch inherited teams that haven't won any major silverware in years. 

It's easier to be patient about not winning when you've no expectations of it. 

Chelsea won't let any manager go 3 years without winning anything because it would be a complete failure for our club. 

And undo all of the hard work?
We’re transitioning from a defensive to an attacking team, you have to remember this is our first season as an attackin* team for a very long time. No wonder it’s not perfect, all it needs is time just like City and Liverpool needed time.
Sarri may not be the man to turn us into an attacking force but he definitely is the first step. If we’re going to sack him, then we better stick to attacking minded managers because if we revert back to defensive football, we’re back to square one.
IMO Sarri will deliver, give him the players and time.

The problem is, this board won't give him the player he wants. So I can't see how Sarri can suddenly turn this around, I think Pep is a world class manager but even then he had the backing of the board at city which has helped him to succeed there. But we already know our board don't usually back the manager in the transfer market so bringing Sarri here was just a mistake in the first place. If we are to get a new manager, he should be a manager that is willing to give youths a chance, a manager that is willing to work with and get the best out of what this team, the manager will need to get used to signing a top player once in a while.

Although we can never know how much player power there is in the dressing room it does look like it's an issue for Chelsea. I'm not convinced this current dressing room is in the middle of an out and out player revolution and nothing that a quick boll*cking couldn't sort.

It cannot be ignored that the teams best two players are being played out of position and the new guy is passing sideways. He may passing be passing sideways because the team don't have a proper centre forward but I think the forward players have gotten used to his sideways passes and sit deeper because of that. Hazard is playing too deep to be an effective goalscorer. A bit like Rooney towards the end of his Utd career.

I'm happy to have Sarri at the club for the moment but am beginning to have doubts about his appointment. He should be given more time and two more transfer windows. Higuan would only be a short term response to a long term problem. I know Morata is a problem and the poor guy looks like a fish  out of water but we have to get rid. If we can get £35m he should go. Giroud is also a problem but at least he has played in the PL for longer and knows the score. I think we have to play with a CF to allow Hazad to play his natural game. No matter how bad the forward. It's time to drop George. Play Kante in his holding role and put Husdon Odoi in place of Willian/Pedro on the right.

COYB!

 

 

2 minutes ago, Andy North said:

Although we can never know how much player power there is in the dressing room it does look like it's an issue for Chelsea. I'm not convinced this current dressing room is in the middle of an out and out player revolution and nothing that a quick boll*cking couldn't sort.

It cannot be ignored that the teams best two players are being played out of position and the new guy is passing sideways. He may passing be passing sideways because the team don't have a proper centre forward but I think the forward players have gotten used to his sideways passes and sit deeper because of that. Hazard is playing too deep to be an effective goalscorer. A bit like Rooney towards the end of his Utd career.

I'm happy to have Sarri at the club for the moment but am beginning to have doubts about his appointment. He should be given more time and two more transfer windows. Higuan would only be a short term response to a long term problem. I know Morata is a problem and the poor guy looks like a fish  out of water but we have to get rid. If we can get £35m he should go. Giroud is also a problem but at least he has played in the PL for longer and knows the score. I think we have to play with a CF to allow Hazad to play his natural game. No matter how bad the forward. It's time to drop George. Play Kante in his holding role and put Husdon Odoi in place of Willian/Pedro on the right.

COYB!

 

 

5

The only issue with that is that it contradicts Sarri's philosophy to play Kante there. I'm glad many others are seeing what I'm seeing and that Kante is nullified in this position, he's not doing enough and he's much superior playing deeper. It's either Sarri will have to adjust the system to get the best out of Kante, or Kante adapts and I just can't see that happening. He might be good at running at defenders with the ball but he can't get the ball moving fast enough or to the right players in time, he's very sluggish with it. I think we can get so many better players in his position right now and when have we ever said that about Kante? He's arguably the best in the world at what he does. 

Higuain might just get us through the season and in a top 4 spot, it's a gamble we have to take because Morata is just f**king dreadful. I do agree with you though Hazard will be like a new player if he gets a good centre forward to play behind, it must be annoying playing with some of the players he's stuck with. 
 

4 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

You lost me at this point, for that comparison to be even remotely comparible. You’re basically saying that that arsenal side are one of the best ever and we’re an amateur football team. 

 

That is not a top quality arsenal side, it’s a very very mediocre one. The hunger and desire to win that game from arsenal was clear for everyone to see. Within about 2 minutes of the game we’d passed the ball straight out the park on a couple of occasions. That shows a couple of things, a lack of concentration because we know that they can do it & a lack of work ethic to make options for their team mates so that doesn’t happen. 

 

It’s not a coincidence that so many people see it the same way, this team lacks bottle/grit determination. The attitude of the players is toxic. There’s no way that three managers on the bounce have said the exact same thing about the same group of players.

I dont know how anyone can have watched that match and thought we played with desire and effort, half of them looked like they would prefer to be on the beach or out shopping.

27 minutes ago, Slojo said:

The only issue with that is that it contradicts Sarri's philosophy to play Kante there. I'm glad many others are seeing what I'm seeing and that Kante is nullified in this position, he's not doing enough and he's much superior playing deeper. It's either Sarri will have to adjust the system to get the best out of Kante, or Kante adapts and I just can't see that happening. He might be good at running at defenders with the ball but he can't get the ball moving fast enough or to the right players in time, he's very sluggish with it. I think we can get so many better players in his position right now and when have we ever said that about Kante? He's arguably the best in the world at what he does. 

Higuain might just get us through the season and in a top 4 spot, it's a gamble we have to take because Morata is just f**king dreadful. I do agree with you though Hazard will be like a new player if he gets a good centre forward to play behind, it must be annoying playing with some of the players he's stuck with. 
 

Kante has adapted to his box-to-box role pretty well. He's making runs and contributing all over the pitch, players that adapted faster were David Luiz and Pedro but for Kante to adapt to his new position in the new system it's arguably the hardest transition out of those 3 players.
While it's true that his best football was playing in a deeper and more central position, it doesn't mean that he can't play what he is currently playing, on paper and in time Kante will have a great impact on the ball transition,pressing, attacking runs and winning the ball back while he won't have to start every possession since that's the job of Jorginho or whoever is in the middle there. 

Conte came and changed from the standard Mourinho tactic to 3-4-3 and now Sarri changed to 4-3-3, both use the players according to how they see fits best for the team but one thing is sure, Sarri didn't come here to repeat what others have done he is here to bring attacking football and he himself knows that for that project to work he needs time.

When did Kante become a player who can only have one fixed position? The media in this country are odd in their fixation on a player being immovable. Kante won't become a better player in his current position if he doesn't get time. f**k me, Pep played Delph as LB last season and won the league.

People didn't expect Delph to thrive there but he did. However because it's Pep it's a fantastic decision, but because it's trophyless old man Sarri at big bad Chelsea, it doesn't make sense to the media and pundits lol. 

Never understood the obsession with Kante in a holding role I think we tried that in Conte's early days in a 433 and he didn't do well at all, in a 2 man midfield however he is brilliant, see Leicester's 442 Chelsea's 343 and the national team alongside Pogba.

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Difference is Sarri inherited a team that has won the title within the last two seasons. 

And finished 10th and 5th in the seasons either side of that.  Past performance isn't always a reliable indicator.    Maybe the title-winning season was the anomaly.

9 minutes ago, dan_cfc said:

Never understood the obsession with Kante in a holding role I think we tried that in Conte's early days in a 433 and he didn't do well at all, in a 2 man midfield however he is brilliant, see Leicester's 442 Chelsea's 343 and the national team alongside Pogba.

Its crazy isnt he, I dont understand why people want to hold him back from his strengths and want him tied down to patrolling a small area of the pitch, having no influence on attack etc. Hes shown in the past month that he is definitely better than just being a DM.

16 hours ago, DiegoCostaLegend said:

Simeone would perfectly suit Chelsea.

Great manager with huge passion.

Same as every manager that we have appointed...before we have appointed them. We have a great manager with huge passion... he has just gone on national television and called the entire team out as pussies. That's passionate.

I'd actually settle for just one boardroom member who is a great manager with huge passion.

What irritates me most is you have people like Neville, Ferdinand, and various other Sky Sports pundits who have either coached and been unsuccessful or never coached at all, questioning what Sarri does. Whatever you want to think of Sarri, he's worked at the bottom (literally) of football coaching and built himself up to managing at the top level. A lot of these coaches (Henry and Neville among others for e.g) who have gone straight into a coaching role at a high level due to their name without building their way up. They don't understand the true struggle, whereas Sarri does.

A lot of the media and pundits are very lazy in their criticism without analysing the whole situation in a logical context. So irritating and what bothers me most about the media in this country. Even Journalists who have been reporting football for decades, still don't seem to grasp the tactical side of the game and just put out lazy Journalism on a constant basis with no true deep understanding of the game. It amazes me, it really does. That Soccer Saturday panel are one of the worst too, absolute dinosaurs who think it's still the 80's. 

We are a club of half measures. Since 2011, we haven't fully committed to any sort of long term strategy. We brought in avb, didn't give him enough of the players he needed, and sacked him after 6 months rightly or wrongly. We then managed to bring in a load of high potential, young attacking players, but then had them play under Benitez and then mourinho. 

Mourinho is a win now manager, nothing wrong with that, so we shipped out some of the players with potential, and started bringing players in their prime, which won us the league. 4 months later it's gone pear shaped because we haven't got mourinho the players or even players close to what he wanted, and rightly or wrongly he was sacked. If we weren't prepared to pay what it takes to consistently sign top level players, why bring back mourinho in the first place? Surely it would've been better to go for a manager that had a history of working well with young players, and it could've set us up for the next 10 years.

So onto Conte, who effectively turns water into wine winning the league title in his first season, but somehow despite spending £200m odd on players, we lower the overall quality of the squad. Conte falls out with everyone including the tea lady, and he is sacked.....eventually. 

So here we are with sarri, the club have given him a couple of pieces for his jigsaw, but are still quite few pieces short. If we sack him for finishing 5th or 6th, what happens in the summer? What manager would really want to come here knowing that you don't get the time and resources to build anything worth while. It's no longer a dream job, where managers get to work with a squad full of world class players, and a blank cheque book. 

Any new manager will be coming into this team with the same fragile players, and a collection of 4/5 opposing ideas of football that has been mashed together in the last few years. He will get a 3 or 4 players he thinks will work, and then eventually the wheels will come off.

We need a director of football, and we need to give a manager time to bring us give us much needed direction. This is not a sustainable model at present. 

 

This whole Kante is playing out of position narrative is becoming boring now

He's not playing out of position, he's never been a typical DM who sits back like Makelele, he's always been a box to box midfielder which is where he's playing right now

The big difference is that before he was playing in more defensive, counter attacking teams who didn't dominate possesion, he had much more opportunities to intercept and win the ball back. He's now playing in a team that dominates possesion so he isn't needing to constantly win the ball back and is required to attack more.

He's still adapting to this new system like most of the team is, he'll look a lot better next season when the players have adapted and we have better attacking options in our forward line

What most are asking is for Sarri to adapt his philosophy to the players currently at his disposal, for him to have a plan b when his tactics aren’t working, not to bring on like for like subs at the same time every week.

Are we to believe that he can only manage players who have played under him previously? Are these the only players intelligent enough to understand Sarriball? 

Sometimes he should look inwardly & ask why against the 2 north London clubs we’ve not performed, is it the players or the system?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2019/01/21/chelseas-tactical-headache-deconstructed-problems-facing-sarri/amp/

 

the best written text on the subject.

 

It's so good, please give it a read!

Edited January 21, 20197 yr by MANoWAR

21 minutes ago, shedpensioner said:

What most are asking is for Sarri to adapt his philosophy to the players currently at his disposal, for him to have a plan b when his tactics aren’t working, not to bring on like for like subs at the same time every week.

Are we to believe that he can only manage players who have played under him previously? Are these the only players intelligent enough to understand Sarriball? 

Sometimes he should look inwardly & ask why against the 2 north London clubs we’ve not performed, is it the players or the system?

That is my main gripe to date with Sarri - his stubbornness not to change things / his insistence to stick to the same players and same subs. That's fine when you're on a winning run but far from fine when you are playing sh*t and hardly having any attempts on goal. It's like he's telling himself, "hmm, didn't work last week, didn't work this week but what the hell, let's go with it again as it might just work this week............". To continually play the best player in the PL out of position where he becomes a spectator, is worryingly bad tactics.

Before he came to Chelsea and I admit I didn't know huge amounts about him, I was concerned that at nearly 60, he had done little in the game but I did like this "Cinderella story" and that he might just give us something a little bit different. But after a promising start, it has become dull and to lose to two of our biggest rivals in the manner we have, is again worrying. A big thing was made of Sarri not being a cheque book coach - that he would work with and improve the squad. Right now I'm seeing little improvement and some players look worse. He's got his work cut out.

      

 

8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Before when the bus was parked it was a given that nobody needed to try and play with possession in order to win, today Sarri wants the team to go out there and outplay opponents with their movement of the ball and without it in transition.

For this to work against a team that is ready for it the mentality needs to be clear and decisive. Even vs Barcelona we tactically shut them down but, they were mentally stronger and someone made a mistake and they scored from nothing because they had the will to not come back home empty handed.

Now if tactically we lost before the game started, it means that only the superior moral and mentality of the players can save the team, but this squad just gives up as soon as the wind starts blowing in their faces. How did the previous generation won the Champions league, it wasn't due to some briliant tactic or supperior players but the strong Chelsea rejection of the notion of defeat.

Outplaying teams is hard when they know your formation and can guess what your next moves can be. For that to happen the talent of this team needs to be much better than the opposition. We are playing without a proper striker against a team that already has a 2 goal lead against us and are willing to sit deep, disrupt us and hit us on the counter. We dont have the personal to turn things around the way Sarri wants us to. 

 

I dont remember Chelsea under Sarri facing Barcelona, So I cannot comment about that. 

 

As far the Champions League winning team? Dude - Drogba, Ashley Cole, Cech, Lamaprd - I dont know how you can look at them and say they were not superior players. Also, sometimes when i think about those days, my only question is how did we not have more champions league trophies. 

After calming down and digesting the Arse defeat (although it hurts), I think we need to give Sarri minimum 1 year.

How many players of Klopp‘s first season are still there? How many of Guardiola‘s? What did they achieve till now?

Let Sarri work on the issue, clear out the team of garbage like Willian, Alonso, Barkley etc. and re-evaluate Sarri.

I think we will be pleasantly surprised by the arrival of Higuain and i am confident that we will finish top 4 of the league. 

The defeat is 80% players fault the rest is the managers. He rightly called them out. However, i would be disappointed if he plays the same team next game. Willian and jorginho at the very least need to be dropped to make a statement. I would drop alonso and kovacic too tbh.  

8 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

You lost me at this point, for that comparison to be even remotely comparible. You’re basically saying that that arsenal side are one of the best ever and we’re an amateur football team. 

 

That is not a top quality arsenal side, it’s a very very mediocre one. The hunger and desire to win that game from arsenal was clear for everyone to see. Within about 2 minutes of the game we’d passed the ball straight out the park on a couple of occasions. That shows a couple of things, a lack of concentration because we know that they can do it & a lack of work ethic to make options for their team mates so that doesn’t happen. 

 

It’s not a coincidence that so many people see it the same way, this team lacks bottle/grit determination. The attitude of the players is toxic. There’s no way that three managers on the bounce have said the exact same thing about the same group of players.

Fair enough - my comparison between me in a matchup between Tyson was extreme hyperbole. I was merely trying to point out that having passion alone cannot  change the games outcome. You can be passionate and lose games, you can be dispassionate, put your shift and still win.

 

As for the fact this this is not a top quality Arsenal side, fair enough, but neither are we. This Arsenal is far better than the old Arsenal side that was fielded during the final few years of Wenger's reign. This is a tough assignment against an Unai Emery side - who is willing to change players and formations according to the opposition. A victory against them is not a guaranteed result anymore.