8 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I don't really think it's Lampard's plan though. Teams have just found out that if they sit deep, let us have to ball and counter us they will have every chance to beat us.
So we are more or less forced to have possession.

There is an easy fix though, and i am surprised he has allowed it to go on for long. Move the ball upfield faster, we need to stop this slow passing between defenders. There is nothing wrong with playing through the wings, Liverpool do it effectively but it involves moving the ball quicker.

45 minutes ago, ducavis said:

There is an easy fix though, and i am surprised he has allowed it to go on for long. Move the ball upfield faster, we need to stop this slow passing between defenders. There is nothing wrong with playing through the wings, Liverpool do it effectively but it involves moving the ball quicker.

Can't play players like Jorginho if you want to play quick...could argue Kante too given he can't pass the ball with much conviction.

2 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

This is surprising.

Take out morcambe and Barnsley and it becomes 5 in 20. 

But I think he's world class, I like watching him play. 

4 hours ago, evissy said:

I watched pretty much everything there is to him following the saga during the summer. I am feeling very confident he is going to be a big player for us. As I started watching him on YouTube and for Leverkusen I thought early on he looks very effortless and non-explosive. After that I realized he is just very efficient which is natural for a German guy 😉.

He doesn't huff and puff or battle which is something in England is widely loved. His playing many times looks too simple. Yet he racks up goals and assist in a rate only players like Ronaldo and Messi have done in his age. Now it doesn't mean he will hit those heights but he he continues his impressive rate in the Prem we have a gem in our hands. 

When he runs towards the goal he just goes there the shortest route, when he passes, he passes so it is easy to continue the move and build the play. 

If you look at him in our games he is one of our most advanced players and he very much tries to go for goal. It is natural for him. Kante or Kovacic dread to cross the line that marks the box. Only Mount is as direct as Kai is. 

When he starts to find players and their runs and most importantly vice versa he will rack up goals and assist in an impressive rate. I think that could happen as early as this season. 

If you expect him to battle, slide in tackles, run around players, puff his chest you will be very disappointed. That is not him at all. 

For me the most impressive thing is his mental strength. Everyone from Germany thinks that is his strength. He is not going to be Paul Pogba or Alvaro Morata in that sense. 

I agree, I think he will come good eventually.

He's a young lad, in a new country, in a different league, slap bang in the middle of a global pandemic.

I personally don't think we have anyone else like him who can pass the ball with the correct weight on it in advanced positions.

I've seen enough of him in a blue shirt to keep the faith.

50 minutes ago, 2211 said:

He's a young lad, in a new country, in a different league, slap bang in the middle of a global pandemic.

So is Ziyech.  Just saying, is all.

Just now, yorkleyblue said:

So is Ziyech.  Just saying, is all.

Tbf not entirely accurate, Ziyech is 27, already an established player and has a lot of experience in the Champions League and against top tier sides there. 

Although I do agree, Werner and Havertz have massively let the side down, the two Germans have to step up. 

9 minutes ago, Slojo said:

Tbf not entirely accurate, Ziyech is 27, already an established player and has a lot of experience in the Champions League and against top tier sides there. 

Although I do agree, Werner and Havertz have massively let the side down, the two Germans have to step up. 

27 is very very young to me mate.

3 minutes ago, yorkleyblue said:

27 is very very young to me mate.

To be fair noah is very young to you...

For what it's worth Havertz has also been known to be a slow starter in Leverkusen. 
In his two final seasons he had a combined 8 goals and 4 assists in the first half of the season and 21 goals and 6 assists after the winter break.
It's a small sample size but it wouldn't surprise me if he went on one of his typical scoring runs later on in the season.

I don't buy into that generational talent stuff, not yet at least. From what I seen of Havertz at Leverkusen, he was a very good goal scorer with good movement and nice touch, but he needs to consistently do that for a few years before people start calling him a generational talent. 

I mean, look at Dele Alli from 2015-2018. A lot of top quality goals and assists, a good touch, could pick out pass, good movement, but nobody was calling him a generational talent and rightly so. Then there is Hazard. Won a league title in France and player of the year, then came to England and got better and better, would win games on his own, he is what you would call a generational talent.

Edited January 17, 20215 yr by Scott Harris

I wouldn't mind seeing him back into the team to see what he can offer. He was pissing me off big time last month though. If he plays anything like he did against Wolves and Everton with his Bakayoko-eske performances I'll be fuming. No reason why a young player should be playing that badly. But he has looked better when he's come on recently. 

30 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

I don't buy into that generational talent stuff, not yet at least. From what I seen of Havertz at Leverkusen, he was a very good goal scorer with good movement and nice touch, but he needs to consistently do that for a few years before people start calling him a generational talent. 

I mean, look at Dele Alli from 2015-2018. A lot of top quality goals and assists, a good touch, could pick out pass, good movement, but nobody was calling him a generational talent and rightly so. Then there is Hazard. Won a league title in France and player of the year, then came to England and got better and better, would win games on his own, he is what you would call a generational talent.

He can't do that if he's played far too wide and if he's asked to do defensive stuff, his stats point out that he's way more involved in defensive stats now than in Leverkusen while at the same time he's less effective up front, that's not a coincidence at all.

He scored around 50 goals for Leverkusen and he's just 20-21 years old, Leverkusen had to build the team around him and one of their best players at the time Brandt changed his role and when Brandt left Leverkusen for Dortmund Kai stepped up even more so he is by all means one of the best young talents out there, there is no question about it you simply won't find a bigger professional that has said otherwise.

 

I thought that Lampard would do exactly this what Leverkusen did with Brandt and Havertz just with Mount and Havertz instead, but sadly he doesn't seem capable of implementing their partnership, if he could do that they would be one of the best midfield duo's in the league in years to come.

 

 

I don't know why Lampard didn't build his team around Havertz, he clearly wanted to have two number 8's and Mount-Havertz on paper is the best possible partnership to develop. 

1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

I don't know why Lampard didn't build his team around Havertz, he clearly wanted to have two number 8's and Mount-Havertz on paper is the best possible partnership to develop. 

Doing that would require playing them with a specialist DM with a bit of physical presence to slot in behind them ... that's a player we don't currently have ... if only Bakayoko didn't turn out to be such a lemon for us ...

2 hours ago, Slojo said:

I wouldn't mind seeing him back into the team to see what he can offer. He was pissing me off big time last month though. If he plays anything like he did against Wolves and Everton with his Bakayoko-eske performances I'll be fuming. No reason why a young player should be playing that badly. But he has looked better when he's come on recently. 

I think it is easy to underestimate the potential impact of his bout of Covid ... hopefully he is completely over it now.

He looks almost Lampardesque with some of his goals from central midfield on YouTube highlights.

I'm still chuckling about his arse backing into the Villa player ploy surpassed now by Deli Ali's backward roll v Marine.

he's a talent alright, once he gets himself sorted we'll have a diamond on our hands

Didn't have a good game again, so let's get that out of the way first, but at the same time, is there any other team in the league that would ignore so many runs into the box? He's doing what he was bought in to do, make runs into the box and rely on teammates to spot them. Lampard would have struggled to score half of his goals for us if players ignored his movement, so why isn't he instructing the players to pick out Havertz when he makes his runs into the box

55 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

Didn't have a good game again, so let's get that out of the way first, but at the same time, is there any other team in the league that would ignore so many runs into the box? He's doing what he was bought in to do, make runs into the box and rely on teammates to spot them. Lampard would have struggled to score half of his goals for us if players ignored his movement, so why isn't he instructing the players to pick out Havertz when he makes his runs into the box

How Havertz moves is something that comes natural to him, it's in fact not normal for such a young player to have such a high awareness of space and timing so I'm sure that nobody instructed him to play like that it's just how he usually plays.

The reason why the rest ignored some of his runs is that maybe they are not used to that. We have relied on individual talent and that alone can only push you for a limited amount of time, Pulisic for example tries to figure out where to go with the ball but in this game I think I saw at least 3-5 times that he gets the ball and after some seconds he's doubled, the same thing happened to CHO and then naturally they turned their backs towards the goal and the ball went back to Chilwell for example.

We're not playing as a team, we look like we just started the new season and everyone is still getting used to everyone...

As with Werner, we are simply not playing to this lads strengths. He is the only player of ours who gets between the lines, and makes darts into the box - but as with timo, we almost always fail to spot the pass (or play it).

 

I appreciate that he does not seem to be a player who is capable of taking the game by the scruff of the neck, and winning it for us - which we can argue he should be, given the price tag... but it is also unfair to judge him when we are clearly  not giving him the best chance to succeed. 
 

there are structural issues at this club with the way we play. For me, we need to build around Kai and Werner. 
if that means we change systems, style, drop others, then so be it. Give them a run of games, playing in a way that suits their game (quick passing, between the lines, quick transitions, through balls etc), and then judge. If they still fail, at least we can say we tried. 

Love all the "generational talent" quotes and you tube clips telling us why Havertz is so special. need to get my eyes tested as I'm clearly missing something.

Last night he "made loads of runs" and "found loads of space" and it's his team mates fault that he actually did very little when he did have the ball and ended up being subbed.

I know he's still young, has had COVID and adjusting to a new league in a new country but at some point the excuses need to stop and he actually need to start looking like the footballer many are making him out to be.

 

13 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Love all the "generational talent" quotes and you tube clips telling us why Havertz is so special. need to get my eyes tested as I'm clearly missing something.

Last night he "made loads of runs" and "found loads of space" and it's his team mates fault that he actually did very little when he did have the ball and ended up being subbed.

I know he's still young, has had COVID and adjusting to a new league in a new country but at some point the excuses need to stop and he actually need to start looking like the footballer many are making him out to be.

 

It's not one or the other, both things can be true. 

1 hour ago, Nibs said:

Love all the "generational talent" quotes and you tube clips telling us why Havertz is so special. need to get my eyes tested as I'm clearly missing something.

Last night he "made loads of runs" and "found loads of space" and it's his team mates fault that he actually did very little when he did have the ball and ended up being subbed.

I know he's still young, has had COVID and adjusting to a new league in a new country but at some point the excuses need to stop and he actually need to start looking like the footballer many are making him out to be.

 

He's not playing well, but he's also not being set up for success either. I'd be interested to see how he does with our next manager. 

5 hours ago, Nibs said:

Love all the "generational talent" quotes and you tube clips telling us why Havertz is so special. need to get my eyes tested as I'm clearly missing something.

Last night he "made loads of runs" and "found loads of space" and it's his team mates fault that he actually did very little when he did have the ball and ended up being subbed.

I know he's still young, has had COVID and adjusting to a new league in a new country but at some point the excuses need to stop and he actually need to start looking like the footballer many are making him out to be.

 

If he turned in the level of performance that he has mostly shown in a Chelsea shirt while playing for the local Dog and Duck 2nd eleven on a Sunday morning, we wouldn't be telling him where the minibus was picking up the next week.  That's all I'm saying.

16 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Didn't have a good game again, so let's get that out of the way first, but at the same time, is there any other team in the league that would ignore so many runs into the box? He's doing what he was bought in to do, make runs into the box and rely on teammates to spot them. Lampard would have struggled to score half of his goals for us if players ignored his movement, so why isn't he instructing the players to pick out Havertz when he makes his runs into the box

He’s making the runs in to the wrong box. He needs to make them in to his own box as we’re only capable of passing in that direction. 

25 minutes ago, Munkworth said:

He’s making the runs in to the wrong box. He needs to make them in to his own box as we’re only capable of passing in that direction. 

Brutal, lol

Eidur Gudjohnson used to play as an attacking midfielder in our first years after Roman took over. We used him in a 4-3-3 with Makelele and Lampard and it worked perfectly.  

It makes me wonder if the way we played back then could inspire Lampard to fix our midfield and find a role for Havertz in Lampard's preferred 4-3-3 system.